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Thursday, January 31, 2008

WOWY: Measuring the DP

By Tangotiger, 01:37 PM

I’m starting to cast my With Or Without You (WOWY) system to the double play.  I thought it would be fairly straightforward: count the 4 base states with a runner on 1B, likely separately, outs less than 2, find out who the other guy’s DP partner was, the handedness of the pitcher/batter, and/or the tendency for the pitcher/batter to get balls hit to 2B or SS, lather, rinse, repeat.  But, Peter brought up many points in an email exchange, of which I will post here, and I hope others can chime in with their thoughts.  Note also that I’m not looking necessarily as to an evaluation as to whether it’s worth it or not.  I’m only looking at the consideratations, the parameters to think about:


That was my first approach too.  But as I thought about it more I concluded that what I was trying to measure was the interaction of the SS and 2B; in other words the two different double play skills, starting a 6-4-3 double play and making the pivot on a 6-4-3 double play SEPARATE from a players fielding ability, which my fielding metric had presumably already measured.  That meant subtracting infield singles to short and fielding errors to short which the fielding metric would have covered.  It also meant subtracting 6-3 double plays (but giving the SS full credit for above average numbers of those in another column) since they didn’t require the skills I was trying to measure.  I also subtracted out all the plays where the runners were running on the pitch. Even though some DPs still occured on those plays, the rate is 25% of that when runners aren’t running.  I suppose plays where the SS goes for a lead runner at third or home should also be removed too.

For the 2b pivot skills the DP opps should probably be only those balls thrown to him;6-4-3 DPs and 6-4 forceouts unless you believe that the SS sometimes doesn’t try for the DP because the 2B is incorrectly out of position for a throw, which I think is doubtful.

I am still struggling with whether there is still a penalty for being an above average fielding SS that gets to balls that where he can get a force at 2B but not a DP, and that a poorer fielding SS would not have gotten to at all.

As I said before, probably not worth the mind effort to get it theoretically correct considering the small actual values involved.  But certainly more complex than it first appears.

#1          (see all posts) 2008/01/31 (Thu) @ 16:49

Tom,
Since you brought up WOWY here, it seems to me that something might be amiss in your catcher table in the Hardball Times Annual.  I skim-added the totals for Stolen Base prevention for four pages of catchers, and the total was noticeably better than average (a large negative number).  (I bothered to do this because I noticed a lot more -10s than +10s.) If anything, the total should have been worse than average, since long-career catchers might be better than average and have a larger weight in the average but only appear once in the table.  Can you comment on this?


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/31 (Thu) @ 17:51

If you go to the Beamer article at the end, there’s an id/password to download his spreadsheet.  In that same directory is my Catcher and Pitcher files, complete, downloadable.  Here are those totals:

LWTS 219
SEASONS 1043
TOTPA 5,215,094
SB -440
CS 7
PK -21
BK -24
WP -269
PB -172

Luckily the seasons is close to 1000, so you can divide all those numbers by 1000 to get one season’s worth.

The average LWTS value for these catchers is +0.219, which is fairly close to zero.  Since we are only looking at the catchers with at least 3 seasons, it’s easy to see how the catchers with under 3 seasons are below average, and would account for this.

Basically, we must have around 1500 seasons of 5000 PA, I’d guess.  So, the missing 500 or so seasons accounts for the “negative” of all those numbers.  So, if these catchers were -440 in SB in 1000 seasons, then the missing catchers are +440 in SB in 500 seasons.

Are we on the same page?


#3    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/31 (Thu) @ 17:53

Uhhh, scratch that.  I did a simply sum of the numbers, not weighted.  Let me weight them, and I’ll report back the results.


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/31 (Thu) @ 17:58

Avg Total
1.8 1830 LWTS
1.0 1043 SEASONS
-3.9 -4076 SB
0.2 233 CS
0.0 -45 PK
-0.2 -192 BK
-1.5 -1528 WP
-1.1 -1149 PB

So, the average of these catchers gave up 4 fewer SB than their peers, and got 0.2 more CS than their peers.  They had 1.5 fewer WP and 1.1 fewer PB.  Overall, they were 2 runs better than their peers.


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