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Friday, October 24, 2008

Who is it that is a nut case here?

By , 11:19 PM

This is from a Jon Heyman article (not really an article, just a brief mention):

The Dodgers were disappointed by the regression of catcher Russell Martin, who in the words of one Dodgers-connected person was “just another catcher’’ this year. Only a year ago Martin was an excellent two-way player who won a Gold Glove and a Silver Slugger and appeared on the verge of superstardom. The New York Post reported that the Dodgers might even consider trading him.


What the hell is either Heyman or the “Dodgers-connected person” talking about?  The guy is 25 and a half years old, he has an OPS of .791 in his rookie year, .843 in 07, and .781 this year, and he is a freaking catcher!  I don’t even see any poor garbage stats this year to give the impression that he “regressed” or had a bad year.  He batted .280, hit 13 HR and drove in 69 runs.  Did I mention that he is a freaking catcher?  And did anyone notice his 90 walks and 5 HBP?  That is why his OPS undervalues his offense this year, as opposed to last year and the year before.  In 06, combined with his minor league numbers, his offensive lwts per 150 games was -3.7.  In 07, it was +12, and in 08 it was +8.  That is a “regression?” That is “just a catcher?” Holy crap!

I’ve mentioned this before, but if a guy hits .850 (in a league where the average player hits .750) in his first year (or in any year, and that’s all we know), and he gets better in talent (say by 20 OPS points), how many teams do you think understand that he is supposed to hit around .820 the next year, a “regression” of 30 points?

For those of you who are just casual readers, let me repeat that:  If a player hits .850 (OPS) his first year and we KNOW (G-d comes down and tells us) that his true talent is going to increase the next year by 20 points (maybe because he is on the up-slope of his aging curve, like Martin presumably is, but it doesn’t matter why), then we expect him to hit around:

.820 the next year.  Yes, we expect that a player who gets better in true talent will hit 30 points less than he hit the year before!

So, the “Dodger-connected source,” assuming that this quote is reasonably accurate, is a complete idiot on so many fronts, that if he is a “high-up” in the organization, I feel sorry for the organization and its fans.

(BTW, when I say that an organization, manager or GM (or whatever) is bad or good, that has very little to do with their short-term, and in some cases, long-term, success, for several reasons:  One, there are so many other factors in a team’s short-term (and long-term) success, not the least being plain old luck (or payroll, etc.).  Two, if I say that an organization is “bad” I am usually talking about one particular area.  There are many other areas, like scouting and player development, in which they could be very good.  Third, since I am not really privy to what is going on inside an organization, and reports from the media could easily be inaccurate or misleading, you probably have to “regress” my assessments quite a bit.)

#1    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 10:18

Agreed with everything MGL said.  Before calling Martin “just another catcher” perhaps they should try counting how many catchers are better than Martin.  Last year it’s Soto, McCann, not sure if there are any others, off the top of my head.  It was a real down year for catchers in the AL as Posada got hurt, Napoli couldn’t stay in the lineup enough, and Pudge and Varitek got old.

Reading the intro I wondered if I missed something.  I thought Martin had a good year and checked B-ref to see if I missed a late slump that brought his numbers down to .250/.340/.370 or something.  Nope, he had a very good year, and even if he had done that given his age and track record would project as a very valuable player.

But what I really found interesting was his full name:

Russell Nathan Coltrane Jeanson Martin

Almost as long as one of our greatest presidents:

Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho


#2    Patriot      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 10:37

Rally, you seem to have overlooked Joe Mauer.


#3    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 10:40

Is Joe Mauer the most underrated ballplayer in baseball right now? I mean seriously. It’s kind of disgraceful.


#4    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 12:04

and Pudge got old steroids-free.


#5    Dodger Fan      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 12:25

Well, if you guys think so highly of him, then what would you give up for him?


#6    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 12:32

I’ll go ahead and be honest here - I don’t really have anything to trade for a player of Martin’s caliber. You can look around my basement and see what interests you, though.


#7    RedSoxfan      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 12:49

Since the redsox have been rumored to consider trading Mike Lowell and the Dodgers need a thirdbaseman how about:

Dodgers get:
3B: Mike Lowell
Pitcher: Clay Buchholz
Maybe one more player

Red Sox get:
Catcher Russell Martin


#8    Eli      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 12:57

Love the Idiocracy reference, Rally.


#9    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 14:19

My bad, how could I forget Mauer?

If the Dodgers trade Martin, who exactly do they plan on putting behind the plate?


#10    Xeifrank      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 14:33

DodgerThoughts has been talking about this story for the past couple of days.  Most people think it’s a BS story.  vr, Xei


#11    devil_fingers      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 14:41

If the Dodgers trade Martin, who exactly do they plan on putting behind the plate?

Well, we’re talking about Ned Colletti here, so who is available that is

1) over 30
2) formerly good-to-great, and/or overrated in their prime
3) someone Joe Torre might have heard of (i.e., no Josh Bard)

If you ask me, assuming Ned can’t coax Johnny Bench or Yogi out of retirement, I’m guessing Pudge or Varitek, since both guys “handle pitchers well” (just ask Curt Schilling!) and are Proven Winners (TM).


#12    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 14:50

This just reminds me of why I don’t like discussing made-up trade proposals. Even the “realistic” ones (as opposed to the “Derrek Lee for Matt Cain” sort that I keep hearing recently) are just blather.


#13          (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 16:49

I also would like to add.
What exactly is meant by “Just another catcher”

Can that Dodger exec name even 5-6 catchers that were better/more productive than Martin this year?

Honestly off the top of your head can you? Can I?

We would all quickly say Mauer and Soto
Now who?
Without looking at numbers to split hairs I would think McCann and Doumit but I could not tell you off the top of my head if they had better seasons just that they are probably close.

I can’t think of anybody else....
So I glanced quick at some not so perfect stats.

Martin was tied for 3rd among catchers in Win Shares behind only Mauer and Soto (duh) and pretty much tied with Doumit, McCann, and B Molina

Looking at just hitting since I feel like catcher defense is a weak part of Win Shares, using BP’s RARP, Martin was 3rd in baseball among catchers in RARP behind only Mauer and McCann.

Just another catcher?


#14    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 17:56

Well, if you guys think so highly of him, then what would you give up for him?

He has got to be worth 4 WAR, which translates to 16-18 mil a year as a FA.  We usually use FA value as a baseline for all players, but we don’t have to.

He has what, another 4 years left before he is a FA?  Figure what his total salary is going to be over those 4 years and subtract that from 60 million.  That is his equity.

I would give up anyone who has substantially less equity than that.  There are thousands of permutations of trades for him.

This is a rough approximation.

The game of “who would you trade” for player X (Y and Z) is a stupid one without first computing equities.  For example, you wouldn’t (shouldn’t) trade for Manny or Jeter (or lots of other supposed stars and superstars) for an old sock.  They, along with lots and lots of other players, have less than zero equity and are worth nothing.

We’ve had this discussion a billion times before (about “equity” in trade discussions).

If I had to say one thing that is most stupid in baseball circles, it is talking about trades without talking about salaries and contracts. Yet it is done 99% of the time, even by people who should know better, like Rob Neyer.  For example, twice in the last year, he said, “You should never trade a superstar without at least getting a superstar in return. Not only is that incorrect (of course), it is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

You don’t trade players like you trade bicycles.  You trade players and their contracts which means that you trade the equities in players.  Simple as that.  Players and contracts are like homes and mortgages.

yes, I know that sometimes a team might trade for a better or worse player even though they are losing equity, for various reasons.  Don’t bore me with all those “exceptions.” My point will still stand.  (I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular of course.)


#15    Pete      (see all posts) 2008/10/25 (Sat) @ 21:23

The only reason for Martin’s stats dropping down I feel is because he is overworked. He starts game after game at Catcher for the Dodgers, and on some off-days he was even playing Third Base. What more can you ask for from him? If they want him to perform better I say give him more rest.


#16          (see all posts) 2008/10/26 (Sun) @ 00:21

Except his stats have NOT “gone down.” At least according to our estimate of his true talent.  His stats have suggested that his true talent has gone up every year including this year.  Whether he is being overworked or not, I have no idea.  Re-read what I said in my original post about a player who goes from .850 to .820.


#17    Pete      (see all posts) 2008/10/26 (Sun) @ 01:16

Well “thank you” for your “assessment” it “was” very “helpful”.


#18    bparis      (see all posts) 2008/10/26 (Sun) @ 11:55

The dysfunction of the Dodgers organization amazes me only slightly less than the level at which their fans are taken in by the media. This is a team that had to trade two good prospects for Casey Blake, ship out the rest of their farm system for a guy who the Red Sox have been trying to get rid of for four years, and still only won 85 games. All this while Dodgers Edwin Jackson and Dioner Navarro are going for World Series rings as Rays, in exchange for a couple months of Mark Hendrickson. And yet you still see fans who are willing to side with the front office (#5, if you were being sarcastic, my apologies) instead of storming Chavez Ravine and coming back with Colletti’s head on a silver platter. If I were a Dodger fan I’d live in fear of any news of a Colletti-inspired trade - the man has to be the worst GM in baseball since his inception.


#19    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/10/26 (Sun) @ 12:40

For what it is worth, I hate Edwin Jackson (he is a near replacement level starter) and I am no big fan of Navarro either. What they could or should have gotten for them in a trade, I don’t know. The fact that they are playing for a team in the WS is irrelevant. Hendrickson of course is/was not a good pitcher either.


#20    Fritts      (see all posts) 2008/10/26 (Sun) @ 18:34

Isn’t the decline in Martin’s numbers partly due to his hitting against lefties in 2008? In 2007, Martin hit .357/.458/.605 vs LHP, but in 2008, his numbers vs LHP dropped to .253/.365/.403. So while his AVG and SLG vs LHP both decreased significantly, he actually improved his BB% vs LHP. This link (click name) shows that Martin’s BABIP vs LHP fell over .100 points so that would seem explain the decrease in AVG and SLG for 2008. I would expect his numbers to rebound some in 2009, but to what extent I’m not sure. Martin is one of the better catchers in the game, and as a Dodger fan, I certainly hope the front office realizes how valuable he is.

I’m kind of new to this type of analysis, so maybe someone more knowledgeable can offer their option.


#21    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/10/27 (Mon) @ 11:14

Post 20 was marked for moderation and is now live.


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