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Monday, July 19, 2010

W/W - Wins over Willie

By Tangotiger, 10:50 PM

One day, perhaps when Willie Bloomquist retires in ten years, I’m going to change the name WAR to W/W.  He’s like the perfect replacement-level description of a player: a guy who plays multiple positions as well as you’d expect someone like that to do and hit as poorly as you’d expect a replacement-level player to hit, but who does it every single year. 

I have this crazy theory that Willie Ballgame players (Craig Counsel, David Eckstein, Mike Cameron, Dustin Pedroia, etc… it seems that being a white 2B fits the bill) defy the typical aging patterns.  These guys seem to improve in some way to compensate for their loss of physical skills.  Just a thought, nothing I have sat down to study.  It also goes into what scouts look for in terms of “heart”.  You take two guys at age 21, and make the better guy the one with less heart, and the heart guy will have the much longer career.

Am I the only one to have this thought?


#1    Bill in Vegas      (see all posts) 2010/07/19 (Mon) @ 23:43

White players have more heart?


#2    Brian Cartwright      (see all posts) 2010/07/19 (Mon) @ 23:56

He did mention Mike Cameron


#3    Kincaid      (see all posts) 2010/07/20 (Tue) @ 00:33

Maybe this calls for another community project, like the clutch study or the Fan Scouting Reports.  You could have fans pick out players or rate players for “heart”, limiting to rookies or prospects or guys under a certain age, or whatever.  And then try to remember that you did this 15 years down the road so you can look at their careers.


#4          (see all posts) 2010/07/20 (Tue) @ 01:57

In baseball we tend to often look at athleticism as if MLB were the NFL or NBA, but the act of hitting is primarily a skill that involves athleticism (like shooting free throws or QB accuracy). David Eckstein and the like have a very high level of skill in regards to making contact.

There is likely some type of stereotyping involved, since many if the “heart” labels are attributed to white, undersized players wheras the “athletic” label used to be layed on black players and now is used on players from the DR.

It could be because the vast majority of media members are undersized and white, and thus players like Eckstein and Counsell get more exposure than they warrant, especially when on winning teams. It could also be that different types if players are scouted for different attributes. I find it unlikely that teams are covering the DR looking for the next Pete Rose or Larry Bowa, but only sign guys that are very athletic and toolsy. Wheras a different type of player can prove valuable working through the minors doing the uh “little things” that people love to clamour for.

For some, it’s just not fun rooting for Hanley or Reyes because they have every physical advantage, where David Eckstein “battles” and “fights” for every base hit he gets or so the commentary goes.

I think that’s one of the areas that sabermetrics has shown is that the little white engine that could is often over-valued.

In America, we definately have a “Rocky complex” in regards to the underdog. We make movies of Rudy and Vince, but often mock the more highly talented guys for not being as good as we think they should be, and God forbid they ever have a nonchalant or mom hustle play, because that will be the lasting image of them or become their character.

I find this same sentiment to be true in the HS and NCAA scene. I prefer to have the talent, but recognize the value in having some of the grit players that help shape the mentality of the team.

Bill Hall might be another “grinder” type of the non-white variety. A guy that seemingly battles at the plate and can and will play any position the team asks him to.

Overall, my feeling on the situation is that we both undervalue Eckstein’s athlecism and skills and undervalue the desire and grit if some of the higher talent guys. I also think that what we see from some if the higher talent guys is their first exposure to some real failure and challenge and at the ML level no less, and they aren’t quite sure how to handle it wheras the less talented folks got to work through that experience in a less public setting (the minor leagues).


#5          (see all posts) 2010/07/20 (Tue) @ 02:34

I have a theory that having a strong work ethic helps with having a longer career. It may stave off the effects of aging by preserving athletic ability through practice, healthy lifestyles, etc.

Also, those players may be better able to compensate for declining physical abilities by continuing to improve the practice based skills while a less motivated player will have more of his value tied up in physical abilities that decline after ~27.

I think people, Americans especially, want to believe that hard work leads to success so they look for confirmations of that. It’s a cultural bias. I can’t help rooting for A’s catcher Kurt Suzuki. He was a walk on at Cal State Fullerton. Admittedly, he’s not white.

There may also be an economic force at work here. I expect most of these grinders come out of college. In the US a white baseball player has a lot of opportunities to show that they can play above their tools. In Latin America, they seem to get signed as teenagers. It’s always going to be about tools at that age. I doubt they or their families have the wherewithal to have a working age adult continue to play baseball if there’s no money involved. The grinders never get a chance.

Just a lot of conjecture on my part, so feel free to disagree. smile

Matt


#6    Wells      (see all posts) 2010/07/20 (Tue) @ 18:37

Wait, what? Did you just call Pedroia a replacement-level player and lump him in w/ Bloomquist?


#7    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/07/20 (Tue) @ 22:00

No, all those players share a heart.  Pedroia has more talent, but they are all part of the heart-family.


#8    Wells      (see all posts) 2010/07/21 (Wed) @ 01:37

It would seem MLB should have some policy against players sharing a bodily organ like that.

At least, medical science seems to suggest it’s very dicey.


#9          (see all posts) 2010/07/21 (Wed) @ 15:56

Waitaminute ...

Mike Cameron has heart? (in the regard that it overcomes lack of perceived talent),

I thought he was recently being applauded for being very athletic, and being in outstanding condition for taking care of himself all these years and remaining in terrific shape?

I guess when I look at Cameron I see more “gazelle” and less “shetland pony”.

Any chance Cameron was just thrown into that mix to avoid to appearance of “race bias”?

I only ask that because Mike Cameron seems to be one of the most athletic guys of my era. I am not using “athletic” for code to mean “black”, I mean athletic in the same regard that Jim Edmonds is athletic ... those two gazalles ran down everything for over a decade.

IMO, it’s okay to have a group of white guys represent the “heart group”, because IMO, that’s how it works in practice ... and I’m not real happy about it.


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