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Friday, December 09, 2011

Velocity as a scouting variable

By Tangotiger, 11:23 AM

Matt follows up John Mayne’s article from almost two years ago, with his article.

I’m not really surprised by the results.  However, I’d like to correct Matt’s interpretation when he says things like:

Not only do pitchers who throw faster succeed more often, but they improve more as well.

Let’s go back to what ERA and component ERA (like FIP) tells us: it is an INFERENCE of their true skill, based on the OBSERVATIONS available.  That’s all these things are.  If all I know is his K/PA, then I can infer how good he is, with a certain confidence interval.  If I know his BB and HR and BABIP, then I can infer better.

So, if you have two guys who have an identical K, BB, HR, BABIP rates, but one also happens to throw 95mph and the other throws 90mph, then we can INFER that the harder thrower guy has less good luck in his ERA than the 90mph guy.  It’s more real for the harder-thrower than the softer-thrower.

The job of the saberist is simply to figure out: how much more real.  That’s the only job of the saberist, to infer as best he can, given the observations at hand.

Now, if the softer-thrower actually locates his pitches better, then that’s another variable to consider.

But, the important point is this: ERA is simply an observation, and observation that has a certain amount of good luck and bad luck.

It’s more obvious with things like steals per SB attempt.  If one guy can run from 1B to 3B in 6.2 seconds, and another guy can run that in 8.2 seconds, and both guys have an 80% SB success rate, guess which guy got luckier?  Now, obviously, you want to measure things like jump and reading-the-pitcher, etc.  But, given a large enough group of players, say 20 in each, those kinds of things will likely cancel out.  So, you’d bet on the faster guys to have a better success rate (since this will presume “all other things equal").

And, hard-throwers are more likely to perform better than soft-throwers, all other things equal.


#1    Matt Swartz      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 12:45

Fair point. I should say, “Not only do pitchers who throw faster succeed more, but their ERAs improve more; and not only do their ERAs improve more, their peripherals improve more as well!”

In other words, it’s not just that the pitcher with bad velo and a good ERA had some good luck. It’s that even if he was striking guys out, he had some good luck. It’s even informative about luck in peripherals and stats that stabilize quickly!


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 12:48

Right, it’s not the pitcher that is improving (necessarily), but his outcome numbers that are improving.

A pitcher going 16-12, 3.50 ERA to 20-8, 3.50 ERA did not necessarily improve, even if the outcome numbers associated to him in some degree did improve.


#3    John R. Mayne      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 13:25

Hmm.

It certainly could be that peripheral numbers are a residue of bad luck, but I don’t think that’s all there is. I think the K rate stabilizes faster than that, so I think what is happening is that high-velo pitchers can make easier adjustments and are more likely to actually pitch better in the following season.

I don’t think this is at all comparable to the win-loss issue. I think the skill set of the high velocity pitcher simply makes it much more likely that they can improve, vs. the lower velocity pitcher with the same component stats.

--JRM


#4    pm      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 13:40

The reason I think why high velocity pitchers improve their K rates is because a lot of them come in as wild pitchers with little command. Once they reign in their pitches, they have more to improve whereas the low velocity guy maxed out because the reason he is in the league is because of his location and movement.

A good example of this is Randy Johnson. In his first 5 seasons (age 24-28), he had a 3.95 ERA 22.9 K%, and 14.5 BB%. In his next 5 years (age 29-33), he had a 2.86 ERA, 31.9 K% and 9.1 BB%.


#5    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 13:52

John/3: you are taking an extra leap here, that has not yet been warranted.

pm/4: they aren’t improving their K rates.  Their K rates are simply dropping less than the soft-tossers.

Look at what Matt says:
K%_next = -16.1 + .701*K% + .233*velocity

So, if you have one guy that is throwing 86, and the other guy is throwing 96, and they were both at 25% K rate, you get this:
K%_next(1) = -16.1 + .701*25% + .233*96
K%_next(2) = -16.1 + .701*25% + .233*86

And K%_next(1) = 23.8%
And K%_next(2) = 21.5%

BOTH pitchers have their K% drop.

All Matt is saying is that the regression toward the mean point is higher for the hard-tosser than the soft-tosser.

That’s exactly the same idea with SB%, or even fielding.  All other things equal, the fast fielder at +10 observed runs is more real than the slow fielder at +10 observed runs.

The same for HR as well.  Two guys, both hit 40 HR, and the guy who weighs 220lbs is more likely the better power hitter than the guy who weighs 180lbs.


#6    Matt Swartz      (see all posts) 2011/12/09 (Fri) @ 14:15

There is a fundamental question here: how do you tell the difference in between improving skill and improving outcomes after controlling for any possible data on skill?


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