THE BOOK cover
The Unwritten Book is Finally Written!
An in-depth analysis of: The sacrifice bunt, batter/pitcher matchups, the intentional base on balls, optimizing a batting lineup, hot and cold streaks, clutch performance, platooning strategies, and much more.
Read Excerpts & Customer Reviews

Buy The Book from Amazon


SABR101 required reading if you enter this site. Check out the Sabermetric Wiki. And interesting baseball books.
MOST RECENT ARTICLES
MAIL : You ask | We say

Advanced


THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

<< Back to main

Wednesday, November 05, 2008

UZR and the 2008 Gold Glove awards

By , 05:56 PM

The NL Gold Glove awards came out today.  Before we even see the winners, we can expect that the “analysts” will be screaming bloody murder at some of them, right?

Well, without any screaming, I give you each of their UZR for 08 (and their UZR the previous 3 years).  The reason the prior 3 years’ UZR is relevant to this year’s awards is the following:

UZR does NOT necessarily tell you how “well” a player played this year.  It only tells you how well the “data” thought that player played given the very imperfect nature and limitations of the data.  For example, the data and resultant UZR might “think” that a particular ball or balls was hard to field based on the written record of where it was hit and how hard the “stringer” thought it was hit.  In reality, the ball may have been easy to field for a number of reasons. And vice versa of course. And easy example of the latter would be a player playing in an atypical position and a slowly hit ball takes a tricky bounce.  UZR thinks it is an easy ball to field (given its speed and the usual position of the fielder) when in fact, it is difficult if not impossible to field.

What does that have to do with prior years?  Let’s say that a player is +10 in UZR, suggesting a very good fielder.  As I said, that could mean that he truly made lots of difficult plays or it could mean that the UZR data was “wrong.” Obviously the former is more likely, on the average. However, the better he was in the past, the more likely it was that UZR was “right” this year.  That’s it.

There is one other thing to keep in mind when comparing subjective evaluations (like the GG’s) to objective ones.  And I am not talking about the biases and inaccuracies (and irrationality) that go into these awards, which are plenty of course (all they essentially do is ask the managers, ”Hey, do you remember who was really good on defense this year?” Literally, their answers could be based on one play, or it could be based on what they read in the papers, or it could be based on what they saw last year, or it could be based on how many errors the player had this year – in fact, most winners have few errors, etc.).  UZR and the other objective metrics are context neutral – they don’t care who was on base (other than how that affects the baseline percentages), how many runs were actually saved or not on a particular play made or not made, the score, etc.  I would think that if a manager sees a player make a great play with no one on base in a 10-run blowout and then he sees a player make the same great play with the bases loaded to save the game, that he gives more weight to the latter, either consciously or subconsciously.

Bottom line when comparing, say UZR (or Dewan or ZR or whatever), to the real awards, just because UZR may “say” something different, does not mean that the award was “wrong” (although it does suggest that it is).

Anyway, here we go:


1B A Gonzalez +3 (07 +3) OK
2B Brandon Phillips +14 (06 -8, 07 +7) No problem here I guess.
SS Rollins +13 (05 +5, 06 +3, 07 +2) Again, a good choice.
3B Wright -10 (05 0, 06 -7, 07 +3) This is an ugly choice I think.  He got a rep a few years ago as brilliant fielder.  He hits well and plays for a NY team, which does not hurt.  That rep (as a great fielder) is going to be hard, if not impossible, to change.
OF Victorino +23 (06 +10 in CF, 07 +21 in RF) Can’t argue with this one.
OF McLouth -14 (06 -21 in CF and RF, 07 -16 in all OF positions).  UZR hates Nate the Great.  Based on that, this is an absolutely terrible choice for the voters.  I realize he has a good “rep.”
OF Beltran +17 (05 +2, 06 +19, 07 +13) Great choice here too.

#1    Ben      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 18:27

Props to UZR and MGL.

The Fielding Bible “hates” McLouth too, ranking him dead last.  Meanwhile Beltran, Victorino, Rollins, Phillips, and Maddux are among the Plus/Minus leaders.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/2008-plus-minus-leaders.asp


#2    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 18:34

I didn’t realize Nate even had a good reputation as a fielder.  My recollection from any BTF threads that talk about him is that he’s not a very good CF, and should he move to a corner?

The fans rated him a bit below average.

Off the top of my head, the award should have gone to Mike Cameron.


#3          (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 20:34

Nate had a bunch of ridiculous catches on WebGems earlier in the season, when he got off to that ridiculous start (hitting-wise). Often, a great April will carry, or even be, your reputation for the whole season.


#4    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 21:04

The NL choices, by the Fans:

1B: Pujols
2B: Phillips
SS: Vizquel (or Reyes if playing time concerns)
3B: Zimmerman (or Feliz if playing time concerns)… best fielding 3B are in the AL
LF: Crawford
CF: Beltran
RF: Endy
C: Molina (STL)

Of the GG winners, the Fans have a HUGE problem with McLouth, a minor problem with Wright.

Really, McLouth is the problem here.  And I can only guess that with 50 coaches, each selecting 3 OF, that they probably name some 60 different outfielders in all, and McLouth ended up with 5 votes or something. 

What they should do is come up with a nomination list of 5 players at each position and 15 OF (or 5 for each of the 3 OF positions… whatever).  Then, they vote off that list.

Look at the IBA… you get people who actually did not put Mauer or Sizemore anywhere in the top 10 for MVP.  That’s ridiculous.  Giving a nomination list of 25 players or so would have helped I think of getting rid of the cr-p votes.


#5    Ender      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 21:23

If you want to look at just one year of data I’d have to go wtih Kendall as the best C last year.


#6    Sean      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 21:44

Tango, you mean Harris not Crawford, right?  Although you may have meant Fukodome as if you do like the voters do and just choice the 3 best OF it would be Beltran, Endy, Fukodome.

MGL, curious because Tango brought Jose Reyes up as he would be the fans choice, but what did UZR think of Reyes this year?  If I remember correctly it liked him last year (could be wrong), but ZR+RZR has him at -6.6 and DRS has him at -8.7.


#7    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 22:00

Where did the “OF” GG awards come from, rather than LF, CF, RF?  I don’t have to tell the readers here how stupid that is.  Obviously all the OF awards HAVE to go to a CF’er, other than an exception now and then (a great defender playing a corner who should be paying CF).  The problem is that you generally compare a player to other players at that position.  So you might vote for a +12 LF’er, who would not be even close to the best CF’ers.  I assume it came from the fact that most people think that the OF is inter-changeable AND the fact that some OF’ers tend to play many positions in the OF, probably more so than infielders (maybe not).

If anything would make more sense it would be to lump SS, 2B, and 3B into one, or at least 3B and 2B of course.

Reyes was -2 this year, +27 last year, +8 in 06 and -4 in 05, or around +7 combined.  I am pretty sure there were better candidates this year, not the least of whom is the amazing, age-less Omar Vizquel.

Omar
05 +14
06 +14
07 +18
08 +28

At his age, that is a double wow!


#8    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/11/05 (Wed) @ 22:53

I guess I was wrong about McLouth.  He does not have a good rep as a good defender.  As to why the managers and coaches voted him a GG award, I have no idea.  Incompetent and/or stupid people do things like that - all the time.  They give GG’s to Jeter, and to players who only play 28 games in the field.  Why not to someone who is likely a bad fielder?  He only made one error!


#9    Sean      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 00:43

If you click on my name the supposed AL Winners were released too.  I’m guessing they are real.

P - MIKE MUSSINA - YANKEES
C - JOE MAUER - TWINS
1ST - CARLOS PENA - RAYS
2ND - DUSTIN PEDROIA - RED SOX
3RD - ADRIAN BELTRE - MARINERS
SS - MICHAEL YOUNG - RANGERS
OF - TORII HUNTER - ANGELS
OF - GRADY SIZEMORE - INDIANS
OF - ICHIRO SUZUKI - MARINERS

Poor Mark Ellis, first all the money he missed out on, now he can’t even get his Rawlings trophy.

Michael Young and his fantastic Fielding % wins miraculously.  I don’t know how he has done previous to this season (too lazy to look it up) but Scutaro seemed to have the best numbers there.

Torii probably wins one for his rep and Fielding %. While guys like Gomez and Gutierrez look on from the outside.


#10    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 01:50

Ok, here are the UZR’s for the AL winners:

1ST - CARLOS PENA - RAYS -1, 05 -15, 07 -6 Not such a good choice.
2ND - DUSTIN PEDROIA - RED SOX +18, 07 +9 No problem here.
3RD - ADRIAN BELTRE - MARINERS +29, 05 +5, 06, +15, 07 +7.  He and Rolen (and Feliz) are probably the best 3B in baseball.
SS - MICHAEL YOUNG - RANGERS -8, 05 -25, 06 -3, 07 -14. They are kidding, right?  He is the “Jeter” selection?  He and Jeter are the 2 worst SS in baseball over the last 5 years.
OF - TORII HUNTER - ANGELS -1, 05 7, 06 4, 07 12.  Who knows?  Probably a choice based mostly on “rep”.
OF - GRADY SIZEMORE - INDIANS +27, 05 +18, 06 +20, 07 +24.  This guy is a monster player and well deserves the award of course.
OF - ICHIRO SUZUKI - MARINERS -18, 05 0, 06, +1, 07, -14.  At the very best, I think he a good corner outfielder and a below-average CF.


#11    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 07:01

The Fans AL winners:

1B: Youkilis (Pena near the top)

2B: Ellis (Pedroia minor outrage, as Hudson, Cabrera would have been better choices)

SS: McDonald (Aybar if playing time concerns, or Bartlett)

3B: Rolen (Beltre, Longoria very closely behind)

LF: Crawford, easy (what was I thinking listing him in the NL?)

CF: Adam Jones (Granderson, Torii close behind, Sizemore minor outrage)

RF: Gutierrez or Ichiro

C: Mauer, easy

Michael Young, as MGL noted, is the horrible pick.  Scutaro, who someone said, would have been horrible too.

John McDonald is the best infielder in the league, but he’s a backup.  You don’t have really good (fulltime) SS this year.  Only Aybar or Bartlett would have been reasonable choices.  Orlando Cabrera would have been a minor outrage.  Anybody else would have been terrible.  Michael Young?  Horrible.


#12          (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 08:29

I was mildly shocked by the McLouth selection. Listening to all the Pirates games on the radio, the announcers portray him as good, not great. For opposing managers and coaches, they may have been swayed that Nyjer Morgan, who I think is a legit good fielder in CF, played left while McLouth was left in center.


#13    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 10:54

Given the choice between hardcore fans and coaches/managers, I’ll go with the fans.


#14    4seamer      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 11:21

I’ve watched every out of every Pirates game the last three years.

IMO, McLouth is an outstanding defender… when he gets to the ball. His route recognition has always been below average especially in CF, but he added a step in 2008. I assume that, combined with his monster breakout year and his firey attitude, got him the award.

Deserving from the fan perspective? No, all things considered. From the players/coaches perspective? Absolutely.

Just a guess.


#15    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 16:12

IMO, McLouth is an outstanding defender… when he gets to the ball.

I have heard this lots of times of course.  Now, aside from the obvious, “Who cares about that?  The only thing that defines a fielders’ skill/value is how many balls he catches, period (we don’t care HOW he catches them),” I still have a question…

What outfielder doesn’t catch a ball he gets to?


#16    4seamer      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 16:34

> what outfielder doesn’t catch a ball he gets to?

MGL, I think you read into that a bit too deep. But to answer your literal question, there are quite a few corners don’t catch balls they get to.

Most metrics don’t take into consideration where a player is TOLD to play or the true size of his zone. McLouth was forced to play significantly in from about mid-April on and the results were as you would expect with the Pirates staff of pitch to contact arms.

Throw in a rookie catcher (first full year), a pitching coach tweaking mechanics every other week, spent arms, rookie field staff, youth brought up with Josh Towers type of straight heat, and, well, you have a mess.

Minus 40 runs defensively may indeed be accurate but not on my card. If he was -10 from his own routes and failures I’d be surprised.

Would I have voted for him? No. But I do understand why he got some play.


#17    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 16:54

"What outfielder doesn’t catch a ball he gets to?”

Gary Matthews Jr., Vladimir Guerrero


#18    Sean      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 17:15

Tango, to be fair, if your saying Scutaro would have been a horrible choice your using the same results that says Albert Pujols would be just as good at SS as Jimmy Rollins.  Now whether you believe that is up to you but saying something is horrible just based off the FSR sounds well just wrong.  (Although you may have just made that statement based off entirely just the FSR, not sure.)

PMR had Scutaro as the best SS in the game, Dewan 2nd best in the AL I believe, ZR+RZR the best, and not sure about UZR.  Now he could have had a “fluke” year defensively, but to me that doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve the award.


#19    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 17:43

"if your saying Scutaro would have been a horrible choice your using the same results that says Albert Pujols would be just as good at SS as Jimmy Rollins. “

No, this is not true.  We have no idea how Albert Pujols would be at SS.  At the very least, we are satisfied that whatever positional bias Pujols got at 1B, all other 1B have also received.  So, while you are free to discard the results of the Fans Scouting Report in terms of how would Pujols do at SS or CF, you are not so free to discard it when comparing Pujols to Derek Lee or Carlos Pena or Ryan Howard.

***

In 2008, UZR loved Scutaro:
+2 in 48G at 2B
+16 in 59G at SS
+10 in 35G at 3B

From 2003-08, among the 122 2B/SS/3B with the most playing time, Scutaro ranks 48th.

What is strange is that the Jays fans are totally in love with Scott Rolen and John McDonald, and really like Aaron Hill alot.  To think that they have no affection at all for the fielding talent of a guy who they really love as a clutch hitter would be strange, when faced with those UZR numbers.

Indeed, if you take out his 2008 performance, from 2003-07 he was -11 runs in 437 games.  This is totally at odds with his +28 in 142 games.  Couple that with the Jays having a groundball staff, and I think it’s possible that something else is going on.

It’s possible that somehow the fans are wrong here, but I think it’s more than possible that the his statistical evaluations are wrong.


#20    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 18:03

At SS, Eckstein, McDonald, and Scutaro all played virtually the same number of innings (between 472 and 484… just 14 innings apart!).

McD, the best fielder in the league, had 80 putouts, Scutaro 71, and Eckstein 69.

For assists however, Scutaro 165, Eckstein 146, McDonald 134.

Scutaro made 5 errors, to the 9 for each of the other 2.

They all had 30 or 33 DP.

So, we can see why Scutaro looks good.  Add up the PO+E
236 Scutaro
215 Eckstein
214 McDonald

Scutaro made 21 or 22 more plays than the other two guys (one beloved by Jays fans as the best fielder, and the other despised as one of its worst).

UZR
+16 Scutaro
0 McDonald
-10 Eckstein

Scutaro is +21 runs above the average of the other two.

I mean, all the numbers seem to lineup.  But, something is just not quite right.  Can the Jays fans be this wrong?


#21    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/11/06 (Thu) @ 21:16

I’m also wondering if maybe Scutaro played alot with Halladay, and maybe there is some other pitcher or park bias at place.


#22    cannatar      (see all posts) 2008/11/08 (Sat) @ 11:14

Regarding Wright - he’s not a great defensive player, but the NL has a pretty weak field. Joe Posnanski pointed out today that Wright would’ve won the Fielding Bible Award if they had separate NL/AL awards (he finished 6th overall, but first among NL 3B).

The Fans ranked Pedro Feliz and Ryan Zimmerman ahead of him, but they only started 106 and 104 games this year, respectively.


#23          (see all posts) 2008/11/12 (Wed) @ 06:26

Back to the McLouth GG. Much of the reason he doesn’t do well in ZR or plus/minus has to do with the Pirates pitching staff. His range factors are similar to Grady Sizemore and Torii Hunter...and had more outfield assists than either one of those GG winners in the AL.

Keep in mind that Pirate pitchers gave up 100 more hits than the Indians (Sizemore) and 200 more than the Angels (Hunter). Lots of line drives there that aren’t going to get caught no matter who is in CF. And his right and left field mates during the season weren’t exactly known for their range.

And please don’t say Nyjer Morgan should be in CF for the Pirates before McLouth. Morgan takes the great circle route to flyballs...and the only way Morgan’s arm could be worse than it is...is if they amputated it.


Page 1 of 1 pages


Name (required)
E-Mail (optional)
Website (optional)

<< Back to main


Latest...

COMMENTS

Aug 31 15:28
Fans Scouting Report: Update

Sep 02 15:21
The two uncertainties of UZR

Sep 02 15:17
Mail: rWAR v fWAR

Sep 02 14:59
Roger Federer

Sep 02 14:59
It’s hard to beat the crowd (Vegas in this case) no matter how smart you think you are

Sep 02 14:57
Could Rob Dibble have been a comp for Strasburg?

Sep 02 14:15
WOWY Teachers

Sep 02 13:37
Who’s Waldo?

Sep 02 08:36
Team Elin

Sep 02 01:19
Can someone tell me why Trevor Hoffman is still allowed to pitch?