THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

I gotta also say that it is not the kids but the adults that create situations like this.  For God’s sake, parents have to teach their kids respect for everyone and have to model that behavior in their own lives.  As well, schools have to be proactive.

—MGL in a thread on an 11-year-old boy who was assaulted by classmates for wanting to be a cheerleader

Parents, peers, neighbors, whatever… Sadly, change comes slowly. But I still agree with that quote, even if I really wish there weren’t continuing reminders of its relevance.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/tyler_wilson_boy_cheerleader

I agree with much of what you say, particularly about dreams for our children, but I think that you go too far with statements like:

“Worst of all is this:

...had no inkling that he was depressed or suicidal.

It is likely that she had no inkling because she is self-centered and refused to see what was going on with her child because it conflicted with her religious or other beliefs.”

Nothing is likely. You have no information on this, except that his father, who was apparently supportive, presumably also didn’t see this coming - or at least was unable to do anything about it.

"(By the way, if you look at the kid’s picture, it would take you all of about 2 seconds to figure out that he is likely gay.)”

Because of the tenor of the rest of the post and prior discussions, I’m going to assume no ill will from this comment.  However, I tend to think that this kind of characterization is part of why some have problems with other’s sexuality.  It is a false sterotype and seems to me, to keep this vaguely baseball related, as informative as suggesting that we can tell all steroid users by their body-type.  My brother-in-law is gay; he doesn’t look at all effiminate.  But I’m honored to have him as part of my family wheter he lisps and wears florals or is as macho as the proverbial lumberjack.

I understood the line of “having dreams for their children” would mean “I hope you get married and have children”. Now, it is easier for homosexual people to get married and adopt children, but for someone in their late 30s to early 40s who were also indoctrinated by what their own parents had taught them, it might take awhile to process.

I’m not saying it makes it right… kind of like how you say that you can “understand” it just as you can “understand” a bigot’s line of thinking. And maybe the mother is self-centered as well… but I think the analysis might be a bit too harsh.

Heck, my parents gave me flak for being “too smart” to want to have a degree in Education instead of Computers, their dreams gets shattered because I live in a different state so I don’t get to see them more than once or twice a year. They still love me, and I love them, but when their perspective of how my life will progress changes, it can take a bit to adjust to.

"My brother-in-law is gay; he doesn’t look at all effiminate.”

MGL didn’t say that he can tell ALL gay people who are gay.

You look at Michael Jordan and think “It took me all of two seconds to see that he’s an athlete”.  But, you wouldn’t think the same of John Kruk or Rich Garces.

That said, looking at the kid’s picture, and it’s not “obvious” to me he’s gay.  I’ll let Seinfeld explain it:

“I am not gay.  However, I am thin, single, and neat.”

http://www.accessibleseinfeld.com/jF2/thin-single-and-neat-gay/

***

By the way, there’s this copyright notice:
“This is an accessible version of content previously shown on the jerryseinfeld.com website and uses open captions for the Deaf / people who have a hearing loss.
I am not associated with jerryseinfeld.com or the relevant content creators and I advise that they have not reviewed the content prior to it being rebroadcast on this website.
I have relied upon the copyright exemption available to people who are Deaf or have a hearing loss under section 200AB of the Copyright Act 1968 (as amended).”

In that case, shouldn’t be BLOCK the sound?

Having received a little bit of suicide prevention training, I can assure the folks who think MGL is being harsh that, in fact, he’s probably right - nearly every person who commits suicide is giving off signs in the weeks and months beforehand, and his parents would have noticed that something had changed. She would have had an inkling - she would have recognized it retrospectively, at the very least - if she were paying any attention at all. (This is what the family and friends of people who commit suicide have the most trouble with - those moments where they *did* suspect something was wrong but didn’t act.)

Now, normally, we’re also trained to *not* blame people for missing or failing to act on those signs - because we’ve all missed them, and because it’s hard to interfere in someone’s life in the way that suicide prevention requires. But, like MGL, I’m really not inclined to forgive this mother.

And, honestly? I get that it can be hard for someone who was raised a particular way to open her mind and heart to the possibility that her son might not have kids - or that he might have to adopt them or find a surrogate so that he and his partner can have a family. But she didn’t even have to do *that* much - not yet, at least. All she had to do was love and support her son unconditionally. But, evidently, that was asking too much. She *deserves* to be treated harshly.

This woman didn’t have dreams for her children. She had dreams for herself that were dependent on expectations to be fulfilled by her children.

Proving that all of life can be found in Godfather:
http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf2/transcript/gf2transcript.html

TOM

Now you don’t understand but, uh, your father has big plans for you. Now many times he and I have talked about your future.

MICHAEL

Talked to my father about my future? My future.

TOM

Mikey, he has high hopes for you.

MICHAEL

Well I have my own plans for my future.

I know next to nothing about suicide prevention (which, I’m guessing, puts me at the same knowledge level as MGL), so my question is:

How much are the signs of being suicidal obvious post-hoc versus being clear a priori indications of a problem that are distinct from the usual ups and downs teenagers and new college students go through?
I definitely remember going through huge emotional swings in my teen years, which included pretty big changes in behavior. I was not suicidal, though. However, if I had committed suicide I think it would have been pretty easy to point back to certain behaviors and say they were “obvious” signs.

Is there clear research and evidence on this?

Otherwise, do we want to have a society where most teenagers are put on suicide watch multiple times in their youth because of behavior we consider aberrant? This is an honest question here…

I agree with most of this post, MGL, but a few quibbles:

1. You say you’re not passing judgment on Jane Clementi, but then go on to say things like “worst of all,” “this doesn’t seem like a good way to raise a child,” and “it is likely that she had no inkling because she is self-centered.” Those all sound like judgments to me. Which is fine - I feel like your judgments are reasonable (and just as importantly, qualified). But I wish you hadn’t pretended you weren’t judging her.

2. I agree with Richard Bergstrom about the “dreams for your children” line. I took it to me Ms. Clementi had dreams of her child getting married and having children. Both of those are, sadly, harder for homosexuals in this country. Even if your dreams for your children are that they be happy, one might go so far as to say that it’s harder for homosexuals to be happy in this country (given the pockets of homophobia and abuse toward homosexuals, as born out by, say, the incident at Rutgers that helped precipitate Tyler Clementi’s suicide).

I guess I sympathize with Jane Clementi’s reaction toward her son in part b/c it was not unlike my father’s reaction when my sister came out of the closet. He was crushed, and many of his responses to her were ill-considered and impulsive, if not mean - atavistic upwellings from the era and culture in which he was raised. But he continued to talk with my sister and worked on his feelings. Within a few weeks he was reading books for parents of gay & lesbian children, and having regular lunches with a lesbian co-worker of his to help him understand better. It did not take him long to embrace my sister’s homosexuality and to fully welcome her partner into the family. It is unfortunate Jane Clementi did not get that opportunity with her son.

So while I don’t find her reactions to Tyler Clementi admirable, I suppose I find them more understandable than you do.

========
It is likely that she had no inkling because she is self-centered and refused to see what was going on with her child because it conflicted with her religious or other beliefs.
========

This is bulls… and a cheap shot at religion.

@11
Yup.  It kills me to come to a blog that is based on a baseball book and have to read crap like this.  This site prides itself on analysis and then we get posts that are purely emotional reaction based on one of the author’s personal belief systems.  Not only that, but then he proceeds to bash other belief systems.

"Nothing is likely. You have no information on this, except that his father, who was apparently supportive, presumably also didn’t see this coming - or at least was unable to do anything about it.”

I could have used the word “possible” rather than likely, but I don’t think it makes any difference whatsoever what word I used. My opinion is that had she not had a negative attitude towards homosexuality she would have seen warning signs that her son was unhappy and suicidal. Of course if the son were raised in a family like that of the blogger “Amelia”, I don’t think that the son would have been suicidal.

“This is bulls… and a cheap shot at religion.”

How so?

“. You say you’re not passing judgment on Jane Clementi, but then go on to say things like...”

Fair. It is difficult to walk a fine between not trying to be judgmental and commenting on other peoples thoughts and behaviors. I guess I could have eliminated the “not trying to be judgmental” line. She is not a bad person. She made some mistakes and unfortunately, those mistakes contributed to her son’s death.

“So while I don’t find her reactions to Tyler Clementi admirable, I suppose I find them more understandable than you do.”

Sure.  I understand her behavior.  Had she had the opportunity to make amends for her original behavior, like your father, then yes, it would be admirable. We all make mistakes.  Making amends for those mistakes is what matters.

“Because of the tenor of the rest of the post and prior discussions, I’m going to assume no ill will from this comment.  However, I tend to think that this kind of characterization is part of why some have problems with other’s sexuality.”

Right, of course there is no ill will and of course gay and straight people (and everyone in between) come in all shapes, sizes, and colors.

The point I was making is that that is further evidence that the mother turned a blind eye (not necessarily intentionally or consciously) to her son’s sexuality.

If I suspected that my son were gay, like “Amelia”, and he didn’t say anything to me, at some point I would simply say something like, “Son, do you think you might be gay? That is perfectly OK with me. I care only about your happiness and success.  Your sexual orientation doesn’t even enter into the picture.  At the same time, I realize that because of the society we live in, being different from the “norm” can be difficult. I also realize that you may be confused about your sexuality.  Remember that I am always here for you and I will stand by your side no matter what. If you need to talk, let’s talk. If you just need reassurance that I love you unconditionally, then that’s what I’ll give you...”

I mean, is that so hard?

Maybe it’s just me, but am I the only one who finds it ridiculous that political and cultural commentary blog posts have like 10x the comments that the baseball analyst blog posts have?

@12
While this site may have begun as a baseball site, regular readers know the content is quite diverse and includes other sports as well as politics. I would guess that some of the most commented posts have nothing to do with sports.
@11
I don’t see where MGL made any cheap shot at religion. He attributed her intolerance to her conflicts with her “religious or other beliefs.”
She was disappointed that her son’s sexuality differed from her hopes and dreams of having a heterosexual son. While one might empathize with her disappointment, it’s wrong for her express that disappointment to her son in the same way it would be wrong for her to express disappointment that she had a son and not a daughter.

15, great analogy about the son and daughter. 14, I might suspect that yes, you are the only one that thinks it is ridiculous. I don’t even know what that means.

dlf/3 - Did you have in mind the Monty Python lumberjack?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg

If MGL can determine from a picture that someone is gay, his gaydar is more advanced than mine. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

My college roommate was raised as a Catholic, and when he came out to his parents in junior year, his mother said she didn’t mind him being gay, but it did bother her that he was leaving the church.

For people who don’t like non-sports threads: AVOID THEM!  This blog has plenty of other threads to offer you.

It’s like people complaining that Times Square is too crowded.  Well, can’t you go somewhere else?

Actually, no one goes to Times Square any more because it is so crowded!

“Take time to accept his sexual orientation?” Again, how can a parent need to take time to accept something innate (and not harmful to anyone) about their child?

So, let’s see:  She’s known her son for 18+ years as a heterosexual, then she gets a surprise announcement that he’s gay.  According to MGL, she’s supposed to immediately accept this.  Unless you’re a perfect human, many thoughts have to be going through her head (No grandchildren?  Some man having sex with my son?  He’ll be rejected by much of society, etc.) It seems to me that saying that she loves him and that it will take some time to accept this (how could it NOT take some time?) is a perfectly good response.

I know nothing about this case, but I do know something about the effect of a child’s suicide on a parent, having lost a cousin to suicide. It blew my mind to realize it was 39 years ago and I know that his mother has spent all the time since then in torture.  Whether the mother or the father here, they will spend the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done to stop it, and they will do so in a state of agony I hope none of the readers of this blog will ever need to experience.  39 years ago, at least my cousin’s mother (I was related on the other side and his dad was already dead) did not have to deal with a 24 hour news cycle and blogs and could grieve in private.

"It seems to me that saying that she loves him and that it will take some time to accept this (how could it NOT take some time?) is a perfectly good response.”

That is a matter of opinion.  I think it is terrible response, because my responsibility as a parent is to do and say what is best for my child, not express to him what my hangups are, no matter how normal, natural, or understandable you think they are.  So, if you genuinely were disappointed that you had a son and not a daughter and it might take you time to accept that, you think it’s OK to tell that to your son?

Telling this child that it would take some time for her to accept his sexuality apparently contributed to his depression and ultimately, suicide.  You think that was a pretty good response? I’d hate to take parenting classes from you, regardless of what you think of homosexuality…

harvey: I don’t agree with you.  It’s fairly selfish that the person needs time.

Think of the person who is coming out.  This person was likely living in hell, confused, marginalized, probably targetted, and other various hellish scenarios.

This person comes face to face to the only person in the world who has given unconditional love.  And the response of the parent is that it would take time for the parent to sort through?  The parent?

The sole job of the parent there is to continue to provide unconditional love, and set aside whatever things the parent needs to go through.  This is totally about the person coming out.

A lawyer, being faced with an accused murderer as a potential client, sets aside his personal feelings faster than some parents do with their children’s coming out.

mettle/9 wrote: “if I had committed suicide I think it would have been pretty easy to point back to certain behaviors and say they were “obvious” signs. Is there clear research and evidence on this?”

Yeah, of course. Which is why there are non-profits that exist for the sole purpose of training people to identify suicide risks and intervene.

And you’re right, the signs are rarely obvious. But the problem isn’t that people misidentify, say, a brooding teenager for a suicide risk - it’s that we too easily dismiss dangerously depressed teenagers as kids “going through a phase”.

(Trauma’s also a big factor, too. A history of trauma is highly correlated to suicide. And being rejected after coming out? That would be traumatic. But the mom thought it was about her, so that explains why she missed that marker.)

#23, exactly my sentiment, and we probably cross-posted. Well-said. Perfect, just perfect.

Let me set aside (far away) my non-judgmental hat for a second. We have a self-centered, homophobe of a mother and we are supposed to think that she didn’t see any signs of her son’s depression because that is normal for a parent of a depressed, confused gay child?

I would guess that whatever she did or didn’t see, she didn’t want to go near the issue of her son’s sexuality with a ten foot pole.

And yes, all of this is “understandable.” Doesn’t make it right or good parenting…

Harvey, it appears that you have been called a bad parent.  This blog is running out of high horses.  Punching another human being in the face while pulling their sweater over their head so they can’t defend themselves serves a necessary purpose - but taking some time to go through the stages of shock isn’t. Neighhhhhhh.

22/23/25

But isn’t it also the parents’ role to be honest, especially with an adult child?
I certainly don’t know the right answer here, but if the mother needs time to process the information, are you suggesting she should lie about her feelings? Do you think she’d be able to lie about it to her child anyway?

***

Also, you’re kind of going off the rails with accusations of homophobia.
The only quotes we have are:
“You have dreams for your children, when someone tells you this, your dreams are kind of shattered for that moment.” But, she said, she still loved him.

I think you’re reading way too much between the lines here. There’s a difference between being homophobic and not really knowing much about it, but needing to learn more, especially for people older than we are. I would reserve the word “homophobic” for the wide wide range of possible reactions that didn’t involve still expressing love for the child, or do involve expressing antipathy and anger towards homosexuals.

***

It’s also hard to imagine how this sentiment drove him to suicide, especially since the father seems to have been there for him. You’re throwing around a lot of “suspects”, but *I* suspect that there’s a much bigger context, and I suspect that this context provides the majority of the motivation for suicide and I suspect that the actions of the two students—far more homophobic behavior in my view—also contributed far more to this tragic end.

isnt it possible that ms clementi did love tyler unconditionally and supported him, despite also not wishing he was gay, perhaps because she was aware of how difficult his life could be after he came out? just like maybe there is a mother out there who wishes her son didnt have freckles because he gets made fun of for being a ginger. that doesnt mean she thinks there was anything wrong with looking celtic.

i still agree with mgl 100% that “amelia” is how you wish every mother would act in situations like tyler clementi. though i am not a parent, it sounds like right attitude to me. but it also seems a little naive to wish for a world where parents dont project their neuroses and selfish hang ups onto their progeny. another example from pop culture is james vanderbeek in varsity blues, he of “ah dont want… yer lahf”.

whats nice is there no matter how much people are disagreeing on the nuances of this situation, everybody is still more or less on the same side.

Mettle I am somewhat stretching and wildly speculating when I make accusations against the mother and suggest a nexus between her attitude and her son’s suicide.  However…

Isn’t needing more time to process and accept your son’s sexuality and “seeing your dreams (of your son’s heterosexuality) and hopes shattered” the very definition of homophobia?  I think it is. I don’t use that term as other people sometimes do - hateful and intolerant. I use it literally - fear of homosexuality. The mother clearly is uncomfortable or fearful of her son’s sexuality.

Again, I am not trying to demonize the mother. My point was to highlight the stark difference between two attitudes towards your child’s sexuality or gender identity. One I think is
refreshing and productive. The other I think is destructive.

And to the poster above who criticized my “bad parenting” statement, prerhaps you want to fight your own battles. Or at least say something substantive at least once a year and then you might earn the right to criticize someone else’s comments.

I’m not trying to defend Jane Clementi, but I could envision a situation where a parent would be shaken by the fact that his/her child could face additional harassment and alienation due to sexual orientation. Even if I thought one of my children was gay, I would be fearful of society’s reaction. I think that knowing your child might be tormented for a personality trait would be heartbreaking.

#13/MGL

I don’t have children, so this isn’t a perfect parallel, but I have a cousin who is in his late teens now. I remember as a child I thought that he might be gay; pretty much from the moment I understood what homosexuality was. My parents, my sister, and other friends all think that he might be gay. My aunt would probably struggle with his homosexuality (if he is, in fact, gay), but I don’t think she has any inkling (that’s just her nature).

I’m rambling now, but my sister, my mother, and I really feel like he might need someone other than his mother to come out to as she likely won’t be overly supportive. However, we think it might be too intrusive to ask him about it. He’s very private about certain things (sexuality being one; I’ve never heard mention that anyone of any sex was attractive), and we just don’t think it’s appropriate to pry into someone’s personal life in that manner. Maybe it’s different, because he’s my cousin, not my son.

I’m not really going anywhere with this, but it feels good to get it off my chest to someone outside my family.

Mr. Red, thank you for posting. A point of view always means more (to me) when it comes from personal experience.

If you are at all close to your cousin, and even if you are not, if you think that it might be helpful to him then by all means find a way to bring it up. Don’t let your trepidation prevent you from being of service to him.

When I am inclined to get into someone’s business, but then I think, “Well, I don’t want to be intrusive,” or, “It is none of my business,” I have to ask myself if MY discomfort is preventing me from perhaps making a positive difference in someone’s life, or if I am only serving myself by budding in. It is not always easy to tell the difference.

You probably have heard the expression, “It is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission...”