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Monday, August 11, 2008

Translating Relievers into W/L records

By Tangotiger, 12:15 PM

Your reliever gets an out.  Your chances of winning go up.  Your reliever allows a runner on.  Your chances of winning go down.  You add up the deltas of all the times that your chances went up, and you add up all the deltas of all the times your chances went down.  Call the former “Win Advancement” (WA) and call the latter “Loss Advancement” (LA).  WA+LA is GA (Game Advancement).

If you start the game at zero, you are marching toward 1 Win or 1 Loss.  In a typical win, the pitching team will accumulate 1.8 WA and 0.8 LA.  The difference in WA and LA, for every win, is always 1.0.  Always. That is, on your march toward a win, you’ll accumulate some good things and some bad things.  And in a win, you’ll accumulate alot more good things than bad things.  The difference, in a win, will always be +1.  Similarly, in a typical loss, the pitching team will accumulate 0.8 WA and 1.8 LA, with the difference always being -1. 

So, in an average game, you have 1.3 WA, 1.3 LA, 0.5 wins, and 0.5 losses.  The WA and LA capture the ebb and flow of the game, on your march toward the win or loss of the game.  There is, on average, some 0.8 “wasted” WA and 0.8 “wasted” LA per game (2.6 GA minus 1 game).  In order to align WA and LA to W and L, simply subtract the waste (average of 0.8 wasted advancements on each side) from the total accumulation in each game (average of 2.6 GA) from each of WA and LA.

Before we talk about relievers, let’s look at the last generation’s four greatest starters: 


Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, RJ.  You can order them however you want.  (Curt Schilling, John Smoltz, Kevin Brown, Mike Mussina, and Tom Glavine would be on level below the big four.) Per 9 IP, the Big 4 was on the mound for roughly 1.39 win advancements and 1.13 loss advancements.  In their games, they had a total of 2.52 game advancements.  Since there was a total of 1.52 wasted advancements, we subtract half of the waste (.76) from each the WA and LA.  The Big 4’s WA of 1.39 become .630, and their LA of 1.13 become .370.

So, that’s what our Big 4’s win% becomes: .630.  (In reality, their career win% is .647, part of which due to these 4 playing on better than .500 teams.)

As we noted, we want, on average, to subtract 0.8/2.6 WA and LA to align it to our more easily understood W/L record.  Let’s look at Mariano Rivera.  He has accumulated 289 WA and 202 LA (for a total of 491 GA).  In order to convert that to the more easily understood W/L numbers, we remove .8/2.6*492 (or 151) from each of his WA and LA.  Mariano Rivera’s W/L record becomes 138-51, for a .730 win%. 

That is, Mariano’s actual 66-48 W/L record with 471 saves is equivalent to a starting pitcher going 138-51.  For a frame of reference, Sandy Koufax, from 1961-1966, had a 129-47 record.  Pedro, from 1997-2004, had a 134-45 record. 

We can follow this process for the other relievers.  Among the contemporaries (includes stats as starters):
138-51 Rivera
132-65 Hoffman
106-88 Wickman
105-50 Wagner
93-55 Wetteland
91-46 Percival
87-55 Benitez
83-53 Nen

And if we look at some old-timers:

174-115 Goose Gossage
153-106 Lee Smith
142-106 John Franco
125-88 Bruce Sutter
123-94 Kent Tekulve
121-95 Jeff Reardon
112-91 Rollie Fingers
104-64 Dan Quisenberry
97-70 Jeff Montgomery
91-49 Tom Henke

Compare Bruce Sutter and Kent Tekulve’s career, beyond this W/L style representation of WPA.  Are there more two players who performed as similarly as they did but are regarded overall as so differently? And, based on these numbers, it would seem that Hall of Fame voters have been too loose in their allowing relievers.  You can make a case for Goose Gossage, but Bruce Sutter and Rollie Fingers?

***

For those who want to try it out for other pitchers, here’s a step-by-step:
1. Take the +WPA and -WPA numbers on Fangraphs, and double them.  That gives you WA and LA. 
2. Add WA and LA to give you GA
3. Take 0.8/2.6.  Call this the Wasted Rate
4. Take the Wasted Rate, and multiply by GA.  That’s the Wasted Amount.
5. Remove the Wasted Amount from WA and LA.

For example, Gosse Gossage:
1. 203.0 +WPA, 173.5 -WPA becomes 406 WA, 347 LA.
2. 406 + 347 = 753
3. .308
4. .308 times 753 equal 232
5. 406 minus 232 = 174; 347 minus 232 = 115

Gossage has a 174-115 W/L record.

Note that in steps 3/4, you would really want to do it on a game-by-game basis.  So, sometimes, you have .25 wasted movements, and other times you might have .50 wasted movements, etc, etc.  The average is around .30 wasted movements.  (Just an educated guess.)

If there’s enough support for this kind of translation and presentation (i.e., just showing the final record as 174-115 for Gossage), maybe we can friendly push Fangraphs and/or Baseball-Reference to adopt this process.

#1    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 13:49

Hope you digested all that.  Here are the big 4’s WPA in W/L style (with real W/L record in parens):

343-191 Clemens (354-184)
319-210 Maddux (353-222)
276-169 RJ (293-158)
192-90 Pedro (212-96)

As you can see, a pitcher’s career W/L record does a pretty decent job at capturing his overall effectiveness.

***

We can follow a similar process for hitters.  Let’s take the greatest of them all (for whom we have PBP): Barry Bonds.  His Fangraphs numbers are 311.25-185.59.  Once we follow our process laid out above (with win% in parens):

317-65 Bonds (.829)

How about:

264-127 Rickey (.675)
212-130 Palmeiro (.621)
204-130 Molitor (.611)
200-99 Raines (.669)
178-86 ARod (.675)
175-101 Boggs (.633)
165-75 Edgar (.689)
120-32 Pujols (.788)

***

Now, can we just add the hitters numbers to the pitchers numbers for a team record?  No!

If you are following along, we are giving pitchers, for each game, a total of 1 W+L.  So, the total at the seasonal level is 162 W+L per team.

Same for hitters.

The reason, here and only here, is because we are trying to mimic the W/L situation.  And the W/L implementation in vogue is to give 162 decisions to the pitchers.

Now, if we want to do it the right way, such as giving about 3/7ths to pitchers and 4/7 to nonpitchers (including fielding), we’d have a different implementation.

But, to the extent that we want to give 162 decisions to pitchers and 162 decisions to hitters, what we’ve done here is what you want.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 15:07

Since no one asked: how would you convert the W/L that we are so familiar with, to something where it is additive?

Again, it’s all about two things:
1. maintaining the differential
2. removing the waste

Our big 4 has an average of 283-165 WPA-based W/L record.  The important thing to maintain is their differential of 118 wins minus losses (which is +59 wins above average, natch).

As I said, by giving out 162 decisions to pitchers and 162 to hitters (and 0 to fielders), we have 324 games out there for one team season.  We have, in essence, 162 “wasted” games.  We want to end up with 69 games for pitchers and 93 for nonpitchers.

so, we need to remove from each pitcher .287 wins and .287 losses per game, or 129 of each.

Our Big 4’s 283-165 now becomes 154-36 (.811 record).

If we do the same for Mo, he becomes 84+3 (that is, 84 wins and negative 3 losses).  Gossage is now 92-33.

Of the big 4, Pedro is 112-9.

The hard part here now is in interpretation.  Whereas the Big 4’s .630 record could be interpreted as the W/L record for the team with average team support, now their .811 record provides no such distinction.

All that we did was take their .630 record, subtract it from .500 (gives you .130) divide it by 3/7ths (gives you .303) and add it back to .500 (gives you .803).

Same with Mo.  He had a .730 record, which is +.230, which divided by 3/7ths gives you +.537 which added back to .500 is 1.037.

All of this is just a fancy way to try to scale things in a way that makes the most sense palate wise.

However, in every case, we are always starting with the same WA, LA, and we are always maintaing the WA minus LA balance at all times.  That is the constant, that WA minus LA does not change at all.

It’s a question of how much “waste”, or commonality, is included in WA and LA.  Do we want to leave it as-is?  Do we want it scaled so that we have a total of 1 GA for the pitching team and 1 GA for the hitting team?  Or do we want it scaled so that the team in its entirety gets 1 GA (.43 for pitching, .57 for nonpitching)?

Raines for example now gets a record of 136-35, which compares quite nicely to RJ’s 149-42.

Bonds is 235+16 (meaning 16 negative losses).  Pujols is 87-0, which is very very close to Mariano Rivera.  They both are very close to a 90 W/L differential.  Now, it’s a matter of scaling them.  By this process, they are close to identical, meaning they both had the same amount of game impact.


#3          (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 17:16

I second that Fangraphs should add an “Effective Win/Loss” column.


#4    Eric Seidman      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 17:40

I’m fully in favor of this as well.  David is on vacation for another week but when he returns I’ll be sure to nudge him to add this.


#5    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 18:16

David is already aware, and he was keen on it.  It’s just a matter of getting enough nudges that it makes it a higher priority.

I think I prefer the one with 324 decisions since it is easier to explain and aligns itself with known standards.

The righter one (162 decisions, with 69 or so for pitchers) takes some getting used to, and kind of defeats some of the purpose to recast WPA.  Maybe.


#6    Sky      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 19:45

I love anything that puts hitters and pitchers on the same scale.  Just seeing Bonds’ record at 317-65 is jaw-dropping.


#7          (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 20:43

Okay I tried this for Blyleven from 1974-1992, since fangraphs only has data starting in ‘74.

I got 241-196 for those years.

Then I went to Jeff Sagarin’s Mills PWA directory, and figured out 1970 to 1973. He was 33-22 in those years.

Add it up and you get 274-218, which is a lower win total but a higher win%. I thought doing this would improve Blyleven’s record, considering some of the teams he played on.

hhhmmmmm....


#8    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/11 (Mon) @ 20:49

Sky: Agreed.

***

Technical note: the pitcher’s scale is really pitching+fielding.  So, we can’t compare the hitter’s scale to the pitching scale, since the pitching scale includes alot of “.500” performance that isn’t really part of his record.

A pitcher can have a 18-10 record this year, but 57% of those 28 decisions has nothing to do with the pitcher.  So, you need to remove 8 wins and 8 losses that the pitcher, basically, inherits based on his hitting and bullpen support.  If you take those away, his 18-10 record becomes 10-2.

For the hitters, as I’ve presented, I didn’t show the fielding record, which would be alot of .500 seasons for alot of fielders, further diluting the percentage record (though increasing the number of decisions).

One alternative is that rather trying to scale to 162 decisions per team, you scale to 162/.43 decisions (378) per team, so that we maintain the pitching scale that we are all too familiar with.


#9    Sky      (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 11:28

Yes, Tango, I’d be in favor of keeping the pitcher scale for both pitchers and hitters.

I bet Bonds falls just short of Cy Young’s career wins record when you adjust the hitters up and include fielding.  (He’ll also have a few hundred fewer losses, too.)


#10          (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 11:31

I’m assuming these are not park adjusted, is that true? As I get Todd Helton at 146-58 .716.


#11    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 11:35

Ok, I’ll work on the system a bit to scale everyone to pitcher’s W/L records this afternoon.


#12    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 13:37

Actually, they are park adjusted.

***

The Method

Remember the most important constraint: at the game level, Win Advancement (WA) minus Loss Advancement (LA) is always exactly +1 when you win and exactly -1 when you lose.

In a typical win, because of the ebb and flows of the game, you have around 3 WA and 2 LA in a win, and of course 2 WA and 3 LA in a loss.  We can consider that 2 WA and 2 LA to be “excess waste”.  So, for every game that has 5 game advancement (GA, or WA+LA), 4 of them really does nothing other than be part of the give and take in a game.

Now, if we end up with 1 WA and 0 LA in a win and 0 WA and 1 LA in a loss (after we remove the excess waste), we’ll end up with 81 WA and 81 LA in a season.  That sounds wonderful.

With 162 decisions to split among the players, 69 will go to the pitchers and 93 to the nonpitchers.  This has the advantage that all the WA and LA (after excess waste removed) will add up to exactly a team’s W/L record.

The “problem” (if it is one) is that we won’t have a ready-to-understand scale.  We are used to seeing the pitchers totalling 162 decisions on a team (and nonpitchers 0). For us to go from the “correct” 69 decisions for pitchers to 162, we need to reintroduce (some of) the excess waste that we originally removed.  We have to shove in 93 pollutants of WA+LA for every 69 of the “correct” WA+LA.

To go from Step A (5 game advancements per game, of which 2.5 are allocated to pitchers) to Step Z (2.333 game advancements per game, of which 1 are allocated to pitchers), we need to remove 1.5 game advancements for every 2.5 game advancements for pitchers (or 60%); and we need to remove 1.1667 game advacements for every 2.5 game advancements for nonpitchers (or 46.7%).

(Why the different rates?  Because the WPA implementation at Fangraphs does not include fielding.  And, Fangraphs is giving 50% of the game advancements to pitchers, when we should only be giving 43%.)

Roger Clemens for example has his original 770 WA and 618 LA (a difference of 152, or +76 wins above average).  His GA is 770+618 or 1388, of which we remove 832 GA (that’s .60*1388), equally split as 416 from each of his WA and LA.  So, 770-416 = 354 and 618-416 = 202.  That becomes Clemens’ WPA-based W/L record: 354-202.  You will note that the difference is 152, exactly as we needed it to maintain.  This also compares quite favorably to his actual W/L record of 354-184.

Mariano Rivera has an original WA-LA numbers of 290-202.  With a toal of 492 game advancements, we remove 60% of that or 296 as waste.  Removing 148 from his original WA and LA, we end up with a record of 142-54 (.724 win%).  That is Mariano’s W/L record, based on WPA.

How about for nonpitchers?  Presuming for the purposes of this paragraph here that all nonpitchers are average fielders at neutral positions (say 3B), we can follow a similar process.  Barry Bonds has 623 WA and 371 LA (a total of 994 GA, of which we remove 46.7% or 464).  Taking half of 464, we remove 232 from each of his WA and LA totals, giving us: 400-139.  So, Barry Bonds’ W/L record is 400-139 (.742 win%).

***

We like?


#13    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 14:18

Tiny correct: 623-232=391, not 400.  That gives him a .738 record.

Here’s how the hitters fare:
Rickey 339 202 0.626
Palmeiro 278 196 0.587
Molitor 268 194 0.580
Raines 258 157 0.622
Boggs 229 155 0.596
Arod 229 136 0.626
Edgar 212 121 0.637
Pujols 149 62 0.708

As noted, it presumes average fielding at neutral positions, which is obviously not the case with Edgar for instance.

I have to say, I’m taking quite a liking to these numbers.

The question however is: do they make sense?  As noted, the W/L differential ALWAYS remains the same.  What changes is W+L (the addition).  Does it make sense to give out 400 decisions for 10,000 PA (25 PA per decision)?  If someone is +50 wins in 10,000 PA, then in a 6500 PA season, that would imply being +32.5 wins above average, which is a .700 record.  And, the above numbers clearly don’t show that.

I think I’m giving out too many decisions to the nonpitchers.  I’m not thinking straight on this issue.


#14          (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 14:41

Tango, very cool. I have a spreadsheet that I created and have been looking over a few interesting ones.

Gwynn 265-148 .642 286
Sheffield 268-150 .642 291

K.Hernandez 203-126 .616 202
Olerud 207-136 .603 196

Ripken 261-226 .536 175
Yount 251-212 .542 175

(Last number is Fibonacci)

I only wish we had fielding and data prior to ‘74. A book on the greatest players of all time in the future? At least modern times.

Have a Molson- you’ve earned it!


#15    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/12 (Tue) @ 15:50

Ok, let me try again.  Just doing this on the fly. 

We are happy with the way the pitcher’s WA and LA are translated into W/L.  As evidence, we have that the average WA and LA of the Big 4 is 641, 523.  WA-LA is 118, which is +59 wins above average.  They average 4147 innings which is 461 games.  And +59/461 is +.128 wins above average of .500, or .628.

And, my translation process comes out with 292 W, 174 L.  That’s a differential of 118 (which is a requirement), and a win% of .627.

So, when you look at the WPA-based W/L record, we *can* say that this is what the team’s record would be, if this pitcher pitched 9 innings with average fielding and offense support.

***

Now, let’s try hitters.  Tim Raines has 439 WA, 338 LA (let’s make it 438 WA, 338 LA, so I can use even numbers) on 10,359 PA.  He’s +50 wins above average.  With about 39 PA per game, that’s 266 games.  That makes him +.188 wins per game, or a .688 win%.  So, even the team hit like Raines, they’d win 69% of the time.

Oh, ok, now I see the “problem”.  I’m also giving him games as a fielder.

So far, I’ve allocated 162 games to pitchers and 162 games to hitters.  But, I’m giving out 2.333 decisions per game, meaning I still have another 0.333 decisions to give out.  That means for Raines (or the neutral fielding position anyway), I need to give out one-third of 266, or 88 more decisions (of 44 W, 44 L).

So, he should have 266+88= 354 decisions (and still be +50 wins, meaning he’s +.141 wins, or .641 record).

At this point, this doesn’t really make sense.  I’m giving out more decisions than games, and that’s my problem.  But I “need” to do that, because pitchers are getting too many decisions to begin with (1 per game, when a good portion of their decisions should really be allocated to the fielders).

***

I think the only thing that makes sense at this point is to NOT try to scale the nonpitchers to a pitchers scale.  Translation of relievers to a pitchers scale works fine.

What I should stick with is that after I do that, I scale everyone down to where I have a total of 162 decisions.  So, really two scales.  One that makes sense from an additive perspective (69 decisions to pitchers, 93 to nonpitchers), and another that is strictly for pitchers (makes it convenient to think about relievers).

Otherwise, I’m just going into a bunch of fudging that really ends up meaning nothing.  And that defeats the purpose here.

***

At this point, I’m going to take a little break…


#16          (see all posts) 2008/08/15 (Fri) @ 15:02

I used some of the concepts that Tango introduced and came up with results for the ‘98 Yankes. That is using the WPA+/- to come up with individual W/L records for all the positional players and pitchers. I attempted to use the additive process to come up with 114-48 record and assign the hitters, fielders and pitchers the right peercentage of Game Shares then wins and losses.

To breakdown the pitch/field I used the following article: http://www.baseballgraphs.com/main/index.php/site/article/pitching_and_fielding_part_three/
and came up with the Yankees being 74% pitching/ 26% defense. This leads to 162*.48=78 offensive games, 162*.13=22 games for fielding and the balance 62 games to the pitchers. So 100 games to positional players and 62 to pitchers.

I made further adjustments for position and rate +/- above avg. at each position to come up with individual defensive W/L records to accompany the hitting results. It turned out that Ynankee fielders are 1 win above average so I deducted a win from the pitching staff. This matches up pretty well withe Linear weights rating in the Baseball Encyclopedia of .9 wins for the Yankee fielders.The results.

Yankee Positional Players 68-32 203WS 97LS
Yankee Pitchers were 46-16 139WS 47 LS

Some individual W/L and Win Shares/Loss Shares

B.Williams 10-1,29-2
Jeter 11-2,32-6
T.Martinez 7-2,21-7
Brosius 7-3,21-8
O’Neill 7-4 ,20-11
Curtis 5-4,14-11
Strawberry 4-1,11-2
Knoblauch 6-5,18-15
Posada 4-3,12-10

Bench

Spencer 2-(1),5-(2)
Girardi 2-3,6-9
Sojo 0-2,0-6

Pitchers
Mo Rivera 7-(2),20-(7)
Wells 7-1, 20-3
Cone 7-2,20-5
El Duque 5-1,15-2
Pettitte6-4,18-11
Stanton 4-0,11-1
Mendoza 4-2,11-7


#17    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/15 (Fri) @ 15:11

Note that you will always have a problem if you try to split off, pit, def as if they are independent.  We’ve talked about this alot on this blog.

All we care about, in terms of the split, is the distribution of talent.  And talent (using standard deviation, or SD) is distributed such that 57% of the wins go to nonpitchers and 43% to pitchers.

Now, it does NOT follow that if 50% goes to offense, then 7% goes to fielding, to make up the 57%.

This is because while the variances (or SD squared) are additive, the SD are not.  We have a long thread on this matter several months back.

The way I will be approaching this is from a WAR perspective, since that’s what we ultimately really care about, and we think that process works pretty well.  It’s certainly the most useful of the “final outputs” we have out there.

From WAR, I would then add whatever I need to add in a logical fashion so that I end up with around 57% game advancements for nonpitchers and 43% for pitchers.


#18          (see all posts) 2008/08/15 (Fri) @ 16:20

So the players are worth 93 Games and the pitchers 69. Then this would imply that if we have Bernie williams at 9.2 W and .5 L that his total games 9.7 remains fixed. Therefore, defense and position increase or decrease the wins and losses. So.. if he is a CF and using your recent chart.. cf is .25 wins per 162 games.. and Bernie played 75% of the innings in Cf.. he should get about .2 more win and less losses. Now he is 9.4 and .3. And, If he is 2 RAA in Cf he could receive another .2 wins for a total of 9.6 and .1
This will definetly produce negative loss shares for a number of players. Is this correct?


#19    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/15 (Fri) @ 16:38

If you are an average CF, you should get +.25 wins (using that last chart I provided) over average, or +.25 wins and -.25 losses.  If he plays 80% of the innings, he should get +.20 wins and -.20 losses.

So, yes, what you are saying is correct.

However, it’s possible that as a CF, he gets more “games”, and so you might need to add say (purely as an illustration) +.50 wins and +.50 losses to CF.  It’s a matter of figuring out how much game space each position should get.

I don’t want to say more at this point, because I haven’t thought through it enough at this point.

And, there is nothing wrong with having negative losses, even in abundance.  All it means is that the player is good enough that the losses a teammate may create is cancelled by how good this player is.


#20    studes      (see all posts) 2008/08/20 (Wed) @ 13:16

I’ve just caught up to this page and am still thinking it through.  On vacation right now, but my feeling is that a system like this really needs to include each player’s specific GA/G rate.  This can make a decent impact on the resultant winning percentage.

But I like the idea of taking the “waste” out of the numbers in order to derive wins and losses that “make sense” to the eye.  Good one, Tango.


#21    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/20 (Wed) @ 13:39

I agree that you really want to do it on a game-by-game basis.  Probably less “waste” in a Pedro start than an average pitcher’s.


#22    studes      (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 01:06

Game by game might be ideal, but you could at least use average, right?


#23    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 07:34

Sure thing.  But, since I think David likes the idea to begin with, that means he may do all the heavy lifting for us.


#24          (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 09:26

I have been working on adding w/l for the position of an average defender.

Asssumptions:

1. 93 Games to postion players, 69 to pitchers (57.4/42.6 breakdown courtesy of Tango’s research)

2. An average position has 11.625 Gms (93/8)

3. Using the following chart -you can quibble about the percentages, just my preference.

CA 2.375 or 20%
SS 2.000 17%
2B 1.750 15
CF 1.500 13
3B 1.375 12
RF 1.000 9
LF .875 8
1B .750 6

4.  Take the total GS assigned by Tango’s method before the final Waste is removed. For example, The ‘98 Yankees add up 101-68 or 169 GS. Divide this by 8 to get 21.125 per/spot. Multiply this by the position percentage above.  Example,The Yankees CA get 4.310.

5. Take each position adjusted G or innings on defense and allocate them based on the above number. Posada gets 2.34, Girardi gets 1.94, Figga .03.

6. Mulitply the number by .5 to get win/losses to add to OW and OL of each player. Using THE METHOD from before Posada had 7.12 WPA(+) and 6.97 Wpa(-)
which after waste removal is a 6-5 record. Add his DV*.5 (1.17) and he now becomes 7-6. If I do this for all the Yankee players the team W/L increases from 101-68 to 112-79 an increase of 12.5%.

7. Removal of final waste to get to 93 game spots for the team. In this case the Yankees are multiplied by .255, and they then end up with a 63-30 record to go with pitchers 51-18 record. Voila 114-48! Posada is 3-3 Tino 7-2, Knobby 5-5
Jeter 10-1 (of course with an adjustment for below average D this will drop to something like 8-3) Brosius 6-2, Curtis 4-3, Bernie 9-0 and O’Neill 6-4.

Final comments.

I have been working on a similar example using the ‘94 Expos who played only 114- games, a different twist.

I know you guys are much more experienced in this stuff than I am. But, I find this to be very Interesting work. What do you think?


#25          (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 13:07

The more I look at this the more I like these W-L Records. I don’t know that I have it figured out, but the possibilities are there. I made 2 more adjustments. The first was to obtain the FR (fielding runs) from The Baseball Encyclopedia. I divided these by a generic 10.5 R/W and then by 2 and added/subtracted accordingly to the previous (1/2)defensive game shares. Jeter Example, -22FR =-1.05 DW and +1.05 DL added these to his previous average Defensive SS and got a New Record for him. The second adjustment was to convert these to Win Shares by mulitply by 3. Jeter New Win shares record is 27-7. The team positional players add up to 189-91, the pitchers 152-54. Some more WS W/L examples:

CA Posada 11-9, Girardi 6-6
1B T.Martinez 21-7
2B Knoblauch 16-14
3B Brosius 20-6
SS Jeter 27-7
LF Curtis 13-10
CF Williams 26-2
RF O’Neill 19-10
DH Strawberry 11-3, Raines 10-5

SP Wells 22-4
SP Cone 22-6
SP Pettitte 20-12
SP Hernandez 17-3
SP Irabu 13-12

Cl Rivera 21+7
SU Stanton 12-2
SU Mendoza 12-7


#26          (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 13:31

As a follow-up the ‘94 expos. When I added the defensive component the team total almost completely corrected back to the actual win/loss record.

WIN SHARES/LOSS SHARES

CA FLETCHER 12-4
1B FLOYD 11-5
2B LANSING 5-13
3B BERRY 2-13
SS CORDERO 16-6
LF ALOU 18-5
CF GRISSOM 18-6
RF WALKER 26+2

SP HILL 14-7
SP MARTINEZ 15-3
SP FASSERO 13-5
SP RUETER 2-10
SP HENRY 13-0

CL WETTELAND 10-6
SU ROJAS 16+1
SU SHAW 6-2
SU SCOTT 9+3


#27    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 13:43

What do people think about this multiplying by 3 business?

It has the advantage of not needing to carry the decimal.  And, it has the advantage of making the records “look” more like W/L records.

But, it also has less meaning, in that you have to remember/know to divide by 3.

And, it looks like I stole an idea from James.  Much like wOBA could have been wBA and a knockoff of EqA, I’d hate for WPA-based W/L records to somehow look like a knockoff of Win Shares.


#28          (see all posts) 2008/08/21 (Thu) @ 14:09

You don’t have to(I would not) do it by coverting to winshares.The only thing I can see is they turn out scaled to look alot like pitchers full seasons records. Commercially, people are conditioned to look at pitchers W/L and get a feel for how they performed. However, in reality a players acutal record is alot more like 6-2 or 8-4 instead of 18-6 or 24-12. Also, these look way more accurate,with the loss shares, by providing context which James has never publihed. He has only tried to show a few on his site. As a final thought, I think that WAR levels are easy to set and give a player a value in wins/half wins above replacement. This serves to give as much accuracy as is required. And, if people can look at a players record and see that his WAR line is 4, 4 1/2, 2, 1 1/2, 3, 3 1/2 they will have a intuitive feel for how they impacted the standings of that team. And, how much compensation they deserve.


#29          (see all posts) 2008/08/23 (Sat) @ 16:43

I guess I’m the most interested one in this subject. But, I can’t resist.

Took a look at Cy Young and MVP Winners (since 74) using the WPA method and got some interesting results. They should be scaled properly as I used the waste removal method to 93/69 and no postional adjustments made to hitters.

The Best Cy Young Seasons: (all these guys were+6.5 WAA)

1985 Gooden 15+3
1984 Hernandez 12+5
2000 Martinez 12+4
1995 Maddux 12+4
1988 Hershiser 13+1
1995 Johnson 11+2
1999 Martinez 11+2

The Worst CY:
1974 Marshall 7-7
1984 Sutcliffe 6-5
2001 Clemens 7-3
1990 Welch 7-2
2005 Colon 7-2
1982 Vuckovich 9-3

Best MVP seasons other than Bonds
BTW,Bonds seasons worth 8.5 to 12.5 WAA
2004 16+10
2001 16+7
2002 14+7
2003 12+5

others:
2006 Howard 14+2
1975 Morgan 13+2
1997 Walker 13+1
1989 Mitchell 12+1
2007 Rodriguez 13+1

The Worst:
1999 I.Rodriguez 5-5
1995 Vaughn 6-4
1976 Munson 7-4
1979 Baylor 7-4
1998 Gonzalez 8-4


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