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Thursday, March 18, 2010

To count or not to pitch count

By Tangotiger, 02:09 PM

Good article overall, and he quotes some pieces I wrote in the THT annual:

I’m sorry I can’t find it online, but the best study I’ve found about this issue comes in a Tom Tango piece, “Miles Per Starter,” in The Hardball Times Baseball Annual 2010. (Remember books?) In it, Tango — if that is his real name — looks at different generations of front-line pitchers and the workload (sorted by batters faced) in their formative years and the rest of their careers, and how long they pitched. His conclusion, paraphrased, explains my ambivalence: Nolan Ryan may be right, or Nolan Ryan may be wrong.

OK, that’s not what he said. What Tango writes is this, which harkens back to the generation in between Ryan’s day and today, a generation of careers that are to this point devoid of Hall of Fame recognition:

This becomes the balancing act that managers face. If you allow a pitcher to pace himself, like the pre-Clemens/Maddux-era pitchers were more inclined to do, then they can pitch longer, but less effectively. If you want your pitcher to throw harder every pitch, then you have to pitch them less (and they’ll be more effective on a pitch-for-pitch level). If you try something in between, like the [Dave] Stieb-led era, you risk losing on both ends.

In the current era, where home runs are a big weapon, a pitcher pacing is not much of an option. So, the conditions of the era really force the manager’s hand. And, he seems to be deploying his starters as effectively as possible. It’s either we continue with the careful handling as is happening, or we go back to the all-out era of Ryan’s time. Both have worked.

From earlier in the same essay:

…In order to give a pitcher the best chance at a long life, [teams] either have to severely curtail his usage when he is young or they have to pitch him very hard. It is the indecisive in-between that is the worst of all worlds.

Which leads to Tango’s next point, which I echo here: Money changes everything.

However, teams do not control the contract of a pitcher in perpetuity. In fact, it would behoove the teams to not think of the pitcher’s arm after age 33, if the pitcher is only 25.

I think what Tango is saying is this: If you’re a small-to-mid-market team and you’ve got a young stud pitcher, you should work his ass off while you have him on the cheap. Use him up and, when he hits the open market, let the Yankees or the Red Sox or the Dodgers or the Cubs, or whatever team can afford him, pay out the nose for his decline years that will come too soon because of youthful overindulgence.

Like I said, we’ll see. One thing’s for certain, though: Nolan’s old-school thinking will be a test case over the value of new-school sabermetrics.


#1          (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 14:18

certainly brings up an interesting moral question, as well.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 14:33

If you mean that there’s nothing stopping a manager from making his pitcher through complete games every game, there is no moral issue there.  He can and should do it if he wants.

Why?  Because in EVERY other union in the country, there are workplace safety issues that are bargained into the agreement.

Players COULD bargain them in as well, if they value their bodies.  And, seeing Billy Martin and the A’s, you would think it’s a real possibility that a manager would destroy a kid’s arm.

But, the pitchers did not bargain that in.  They do not care.  If they did, they’d put it in.

Just like steroids, this is a workplace safety issue.  If the players don’t care about their own bodies, then the manager shouldn’t either.


#3          (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 14:45

sure. but there’s complicating issues. and i wasn’t just referring the team/manager having a moral question. there are more position players in the union, right? how many of the pitchers are past the point in their careers where they’d care about this issue? how much power do the remaining pitchers actually have inside the union? i could go on.

everyone is looking at for themselves (what else is new, right?). the young pitcher isn’t exactly a powerful force in the union. but that’s not different than the ageism in most unions.


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 15:01

The union does not look after the majority only, nor do they hold referendums on each issue.

Did you know that for every CBA, the union has been able to add extra years backwards to cover more players into their pension?  Now, I would guess less than 1% of existing ballplayers care about covering guys from decades ago.  But, the union leadership does it.

If the ballplayers don’t care, they let the leadership decide.  If they do care, they let their voices be heard.


#5          (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 15:10

forgive my skepticism about unions and their motives. and i’m thinking enacting guidelines for how teams use their players is a slightly more hot button issue than pensions. it would certainly take a singular individual to take up the banner of enforced time off in a macho industry.


#6          (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 15:30

I think Peter Keating on ESPN pointed out that the player’s union doesn’t much want injuries to be a focal point in negotiations. The thinking, as I understand it, is that it is a pandora’s box.

If you argue that you want special treatment to prevent injuries, clubs will price injury history/risk more rigorously into player contracts. The union seems to be of the opinion that the unspoken agreement now (pay with less regard for injures, and use the hell out of them) is a better deal for the players than longer careers with lower pay.

But who knows. Pure speculation on my part. This may assume too much rationality on everyone’s part.

Do you have any insight into this particular question Tom?


#7    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 15:43

Yes, this is my point!

If active players don’t care about pensions for retired player (and they don’t), they will NOT stand in the way of the union leadership.

If active players don’t care about their bodies (and they don’t), they will NOT stand in the way of the union leadership.

The union leadership DOES care about retired players, and so, they fight for them.

The union leadership does NOT care about the health of active players, and so, throwing of the players to the steroids wolves, and the inexistence of workload provisions.

***

Yes, if there is but one single pitcher that cares about this, he can easily galvanize 10 pitchers, and that would be enough the union to speak up.  And if you get 10, you’ll get them all.

It’s a no-brainer.

But, other than us fans, no one cares.


#8    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 15:46

Josh, I have no insight here.  Interesting thought about the general issue of discussing health.

But, sure, there’s a pie out there, and the players are going to get it.  Just a matter of which ones.


#9    Kenny      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 20:55

As for the workplace safety issue, the players do bargain for and get around 20 off days a season, and can’t play more than so many days in a row (can’t remember the exact #).  I don’t know if that is for physical, mental or emotional health reasons, or some combo of all 3.  So it is in the power of the players to negotiate modification of the working conditions. 

Hell, if the owners had their way, they’d probably have a game on each day of the six months of the baseball season, meaning 183 games - and they’d likely thrown in 17 scheduled doubleheaders, and play 200 games a year for all of us to piss our money away on.


#10    Hizouse      (see all posts) 2010/03/18 (Thu) @ 23:10

So Tango, it’s OK to destroy a 21-year-old’s career as long as he doesn’t object?  If you know you are harming someone, but the victim doesn’t know it (yet), it’s OK?


#11    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/19 (Fri) @ 07:55

It’s ok if that player was part of the union when the CBA was signed.


#12          (see all posts) 2010/03/19 (Fri) @ 08:55

Isn’t is possible that the reason this stuff isn’t in the CBA is that the players saw that most teams were moving towards rather strict pitch counts anyway, so they didn’t want to give up anything for a benefit that would almost certainly already be there?  Nobody has pulled a 1980s Oakland Billy Martin since… well… Billy Martin.

It would be sort of like the players giving up something to keep managers from pitching relievers 140 innings a year.  Or protecting pitchers from the harm of 250-ft fences at the Polo Grounds.


#13    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/03/19 (Fri) @ 09:36

Jon, it seems reasonable that the leadership thought like that.

As for teh players themselves, I doubt more than 1% of them would think these things.


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