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Tuesday, September 26, 2006

This Day In Genderism

By Tangotiger, 08:47 AM

Yet another play with your own kind articles:

This wouldn’t be a bee in my bonnet if the determined young ladies didn’t have the option of trying out for the school’s girl’s team ... but they do. Apparently the pair are unimpressed with the calibre of play on the team designed for their sex. They say “some of them can barely skate.” I suggest perhaps they take that problem on rather than bypass it and leave it for others to fix.
...
These young ladies, who are so talented beyond their gender, need to help their gender. They can look at it as a challenge and a rush to become builders of the sport. The sisters say they are ecstatic about their chance to battle with the boys for a roster spot, or two. Fine, but the guys who don’t make the boys’ squad now don’t have the right to try out for the girls’ team.

Wow.  The Michelle Wie syndrome in teen sports.  I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, so I’ll repeat it here.

We have women’s league to give women an additional opportunity to participate, not the sole opportunity.

The way the leagues are setup, you have the top division, where the best person makes it, regardless of gender.  Then, you have two branches, which are split by gender.  You move up the rung, until you reach the top.  That the top division is almost always made up of boys doesn’t mean it’s a boys-only division.

This is the 21st century. Why are we still talking about gender?


#1    MGL      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 10:58

I DNRTFA, but I could not agree more with Tango, and it is quite simple.  There should be no controversy with any of these women’s/girl’s, men’s/boy’s team/league issues.  You can create an issue if you really want, but as Tango says, it is quite straightforward.  Women’s teams and leagues are created so that more women have a chance to compete (there are other reasons, but that is the primary one).  If there were only one team or league, then it would be dominated by men and boys of course.  However, if a woman is good enough for a men’s team or league, who in the world should care about her gender?  I can’t emphasize that last sentence enough.  If someone cares about someone’s gender in men’s golf or on a boy’s baseball team, that is strictly their problem and is no different from objecting to someone’s race or religion.

There are simply two levels in sports.  One is the top level open to all candidates, but traditionally called the “men’s” level.  Actually, in many sports, there is no reference to gender.  If a woman can make in in the NBA, MLB, NHL, etc., that’s fine.  Where is it written that it is a “men’s” league?  It is not!  In school, it is simply for convenience and by tradition, that it is called the “boy’s” team, and in order to distinguish it from the “lower league,” the girl’s team.  Now, the reason the lower league, or “girl’s” league or team in all sports and in all venues is not open to the boys is obvious!  I shouldn’t even have to explain it and I won’t.  If it were, there would be no need for two leagues in the first place, and we would be back to the original problem (that most of the girls would not make a “co-ed” team).

We have the special Olmpics, open to certain kinds of challenged players, right?  It is not open to everyone.  Yet, any of those challenged players can compete in the regular Olympics if they have enough talent, right?  We have junior events and leagues for kids, yet if one of those juniors is good enough for the “adult” league, they can play in that, and eveyone thinks that is great.

I mean where is the controversy, here, if you take a rational and sensible attitude?  People are just not smart enough to see the logic in this, and frankly I am tired of hearing criticism from people who are apparently not smart enough to realize when something is perfectly reasonable and is done all the time for other “subsets” of the population (beside gender) and no one thinks anything of it.  Again, the argument that, “Then the boys should be able to play on the girl’s team,” or, “Why should the girls get “perferential treatment” is ludicrous! And yes, I agree that in 2006, we need to stop making arbitrary distincions between the genders. But I guess these things take time.  It only took one or two hundred years before we stopped doing that regard to race.  We still have around 50 or 100 years to go with respect to gender I guess.

Oh, and to stop making arbitrary distinctions between genders does NOT mean to integrate the leagues and teams and not giving girls “preferential” treatment.  Maybe one day, the gap in athletic talent will narrow to the point where we don’t need two leagues or teams.  Who knows?  Obviously there is an area which is grey, such as should there be two leagues in basketball, one for white and one for black, since the blacks are better in basketball and it is tough for the whites to compete?  As far as I can tell, the difference in most sports between girls and boys is large enough that it is not yet a grey area.


#2    Jim P      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 13:04

I did RTFA, and while I agree with what Tango wrote, I think he missed the point of the article.  The author (a woman) thinks that the girls owe it to their gender and the concept of “women’s hockey” to play with (and teach, and be a role model, and make better) other girls rather than taking the more selfish route of finding the best team they can play with.

And she’s right, in a sense.  Women’s hockey would be better if the best girls stayed in women’s hockey, and inner-city schools would be better if families who can afford it didn’t move out, and rural towns would be better if the smart kids didn’t move out to the big city, and local sports teams would be better if the best kids weren’t recruited by the private schools, etc.  The argument should be whether there is any obligation on the part of the kids to give back.  And we laud those who have the opportunity to take the (selfish, in the good sense) route to what is best for them as an individual but pass on it to help the community (public defenders, doctors on Indian reservations, baseball players who accept a “hometown discount").


#3    Jim P      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 13:14

And I meant to add that it’s not for the author of this piece to decide for them.  Not everyone wants to be or is even capable of taking the “selfless” route, especially if they’re just kids who probably just want to play.  But the author obviously cares about her sport and is being entirely reasonable to point out that the other girls would benefit by having these two playing with them.


#4    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 13:17

Jody Vance, the writer of the article, is described here:
http://www.vancourier.com/issues04/012204/news/012204nn1.html

Vance was criticized for appearing in spring 2002 in Urban Male Magazine, a popular Canadian men’s publication, showing off her midriff and striking a provocative pose with several other Canadian television personalities. The appearance drew allegations that sexuality was being used to market sports and raised the ire of female journalists eager to be respected for their work, not their appearances. CNN even jumped on the bandwagon, wagging its finger at Vance for setting back the cause of female sports presenters.

I don’t necessarily agree with Jim that it’s better not to leave those people behind.  Going on to bigger and better things is also something for those left behind to strive for.  In any case, it’s not up to teenage girls to steer the ship.  When they get older, if they want to come and teach girls to help them strive in their goal of maybe reaching the “boys” division, so be it. 

Let teenagers be teenagers, and don’t invent issues like gender (or racism).  If it wasn’t for adults telling kids about not being bigotted, they wouldn’t be bigotted to begin with.


#5    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 13:34

Jim, you had me, then you lost me!

Maybe Ryan Zimmerman should have stayed in college, and helped out the college kids?  That would have been unselfish of him, and would have helped the new kids coming in.  You can say that about anything, that it would benefit all students and apprentices for the more skilled ones to stunt their own growth so that they can teach those below them.

I think it’s completely unreasonable for Vance to have used these girls as her point.  Why did Vance not use a positive example of actual girls who have decided to stop competing at higher levels and teach the latest batch?  How hard could it have been for her to find such girls?


#6    Jim P      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 14:16

And you’re confusing me with that story about Vance.  She’s doing to the girls what CNN did to her, I suppose.

Many players do wrestle with decisions about whether to leave where they are and some do decide to stay, either to help the local team (which may have given them their start) or because they feel they made a commitment.  The ones who do stay don’t file lawsuits.

Was UVa baseball struggling to find players who could throw?  Are these girls on the track to professional (male) hockey? (No, they’re just trying out for a high school team.)

I’m glad the court decided as it did, and similarly dismiss the argument of “well then boys should be allowed to play on girls’ teams.” And if these girls decide they want to try to play on the boys team, I think they should go for it.  But high school kids are capable of making altruistic choices, also.  Vance is correct that this is an “opportunity to lead by sharing knowledge and honing skills.” It is by no means an obligation, but I’d be proud if it was my kid and she at least put some consideration of this into the decision.

(And sorry to drone on, but I read the Vance article a third and fourth time and got more irritated with her tone.  She wasn’t just suggesting that maybe the girls could help their fellow girls, but that it was wrong for them to take the path they did.  In fact, the only other line I like from the article is the final one, “Being a winner isn’t always about the scoreboard.")


#7    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2006/09/26 (Tue) @ 14:39

Right, I got that tone the first time.  She was disappointed in their choices, and she made gender the issue.

If they were boys, in some small Canadian town, what do you think happens?  These kids leave the farm and go to play in juniors, and they come back to the farm in the off-season.  They don’t stick around to help out their little brothers and neighbors get better.

What should Freddie Adu have done?  Is being a 15-yr old professional soccer player too selfish, that maybe he should help out the 14-yr olds?  Should Michelle Wie stop going around the world?  Wayne Gretzky was playing against 10-yr olds, when he was SIX.  Should he have been coaching the five year olds to be better?  I remember reading about 17-yr olds playing against a 12-yr old Mike Modano, and they were in awe and proud that they could play with him.

Age, gender, race, religion.  These are adult-created bigotry.

The best thing for a teenager to do is to try to achieve your potential.  Turning two people, (apparently) clearly better than their competitors, who are teenagers into teachers is an outlandish suggestion.  Let them live.  Parents should kick the butts of their children to make sure they strive to be the best, first and foremost.  Along the way, help those who you can.  Once you are an adult, then decide on your path.

Vance should keep her nose out of the lives of teenagers that are not hers.



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