Wednesday, September 09, 2009
The monthly “WPA, Primer, and me” thread
I yap alot here. Once things slow down, I’ll copy/paste all my comments here.
UPDATE: below the fold.
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Once you weight by LI, you get rid of the Sac Fly in the 9th vs. HR in the 1st problem, as I understand things, though I’m sure the stat has other issues (such as the 1st inning homer in a 1-0 game vs 1st inning homer in a 13-2 game). And, of course, it’s an offense stat with no accounting for defense.
Negative.
WPA/LI has no issues like that, whatsoever. If someone wants to say that there are issues, then please say what those issues are, and I’ll refute them.
What WPA/LI does, and it is the ONLY stat in existence that does this, is to make sure that the walk-off HR and the walk-off walk have the exact same value (roughly +.06 wins), and does so without the inflationary aspect of the game importance (likely get say a +.60 wins using WPA).
The only issue you can have with WPA/LI is that I have not explained it well. It is otherwise the perfect stat (if you believe that a batter/pitcher will approach the base/out and inning/score situation differently from random).
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As for decring WPA or WPA/LI for not accounting for defense, well, neither does OBP! And OBP weights a walk and HR as a “1” in all situations. Down with OBP.
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That may be an important difference in the “story,” but has nothing to do with the ultimate value of their hits.
Right, WPA is a “story stat” (as studes has coined it). It quantifies how you feel at the time the event takes place. That is what it is.
If someone wants to use a hammer to nail in a screw, what do you want us to do about that?
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Thanks for clearing that up for us, Tom.
Since you asked, it’s all there.
UPDATE: this was the original, less technical article I wrote. As I said, this is a tough thing to try to explain.
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WPA is a junk stat, and is fairly useless unless you are talking about a reliever, who can actually be leveraged.
You are wrong Joe. Just because you haven’t found a use for it doesn’t mean it is useless.
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Joe/32: WPA/LI has nothing at all to do with WPA. You are confusing the two stats (which is why I’ve been calling WPA/LI as Situational Wins).
In no way is your scenario true for WPA/LI. Indeed, the two events are likely very roughly equal.
If you want to say that WPA doesn’t address your particular issue, then that’s fine. What WPA says, and the only thing it says, is that: GIVEN the future outcomes are unknown, how much has the chance of the team winning changed following this event. That is it. That’s all it is. It quantified your feelings at the time you felt it.
If you think this is useless, to you, that’s fine. But, I find it useful for analytical purposes to see who was involved in the biggest plays (at the time they happened).
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Isn’t the only reason why “the walk-off HR and the walk-off walk have the exact same value” precisely because of “the inflationary aspect of the game importance”?
No. I explained it in the article I linked, and I’ll repost it for you:
Let’s take the most basic game state that we can imagine: the bases are loaded, there are two outs, it’s the bottom of the last inning, and the score is tied. In this situation, any positive event means the game is over. Any out means extra innings. The chances of winning in this situation is 0.6667. Any safe event adds .3333 wins. And negative event removes .1667 wins. So, compared to the out, a walk will add +.500 wins. A single will add +.500 wins. A double, triple, homerun, all will add +.500 wins. For this particular game state, the relative value of the walk is identical to the relative value of the homerun. This is the equation for wOBA for this particular game state:
wOBA = (1.0 x BB + 1.0 x 1B + 1.0 x XBH + 1.0 x HR) / PA
Obviously, OBP equals wOBA in this case for every single player.
Basically, while a walk is normally worth +.03 wins and a HR is worth +.13 wins, in this particular situation they are both worth +.06 wins.
See? There is no inflationary aspect here. They both get the same value, because they are worth the same thing.
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It has use, like when Sean Forman shows the ‘game-changing’ hits from the night before on B-R.
Yes, a perfect example. WPA tells you the events that caused the biggest cheers (or moans). It goes farther in that it also tells you WHO was involved. And it goes farther still by TRACKING who was involved over the season. And it goes even farther by compiling leaderboards.
If Johnny Damon is the leader in WPA in the AL, that simply means that he was involved in a ton of big plays. Whether he was lucky to be there is irrelevant to WPA. It simply tells us that he was there when great things happened.
You can call that useless if you want.
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If anyone came in here declaring that the league leader in OBP was necessarily the MVP, he’d get hooted down, too.
I totally agree that the league leader in WPA does not an MVP make. I’m with you there.
But, in no way that because someone says that does it make WPA or OBP a junk stat. It’s a junk application.
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This is news to me. If the metric treats those two events as equal, then I definitely could see some value in it.
Read the link in post 30.
For all the people who think that a strikeout with a runner on 3B and less than 2 outs is an extremely bad event, then this stat is for you. If you think that a K is like any other out in this case (even a SF!), then this stat is NOT for you.
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But I’ve read his explanation half a dozen times now and I still don’t understand his stat.
You are in the huge majority. I take it as a failing of mine that I can’t make the explanation better than I have.
Given the utter bafflement by a LOT of people about this thing, can you cut out the tone of righteous indignation every time it comes up?
My tone is proportional to everyone else’s.
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And what about the people who think this stats says who should be the MVP? That is what gets most people’s dander up, and I should think it should get yours as well. The “It’s only a junk stat” comments are mainly an understandably overarching response to the “Damon is the MVP because he’s leading in WPA” comments.
As I said, it’s a junk application. That doesn’t make it a junk stat.
If people were to say: “Yet another article about the misuse of WPA”, then I’d be in agreement with those people. Instead, it’s always the same “Trying to use a hammer on a screw? Who’s the crazy guy championing the hammer?”
You’d think we’d all be on board here, but I seem to have the same discussion with the same people all the time.
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But once you start weighing late innings of close games more importantly than early innings of games that eventually become close in the late innings, that’s where I jump off the train.
And this has ZERO to do with WPA/LI. Indeed, WPA/LI goes out of its way to ensure that each PA counts as “1”.
WPA goes out of its way to ensure that some PA count as “10” and others as “0.01”.
Basically, you are not on the train you think you are on.
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when I’m evaluating a player I’m more concerned with how he helps the team, independent of the teams wins/losses.
You were so close. WPA/LI has NOTHING at all with whether a team wins or loses, and whether that players advances a team to winning in any way other than what we normally think (HR good, out bad).
It simply reweights each event up and down a little. Like, in this case you may say the single is worth a bit more than normal and a double is worth a bit less than normal. OVERALL, the average positive event is identical in every game situation. Sometimes a walk is worth +.02 wins, other times it’s +.06 wins, but it’s all centered around its average of +.03 wins.
It’s simply a realization, like with the K, that each event has a different RELATIVE impact to all other events. But, the average impact is identical.
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BTW, did anyone ever answer #12? Where can I see the leaderboards for this . . .
You are not a big Fangraphs user I see.
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clarification: it doesn’t care one whit about score of the game or not? whether you win or lose?
It only cares about the score/inning if it impacts the value of the events RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER. So, bases loaded 2 outs, tied game bottom of the 9th, a walk and HR are identical. So, it cares about it that way. But that’s the same kind of caring with the K with a runner on 3B and less than 2 outs, or a GB with a runner on 1B and less than 2 outs, etc. It’s just more nuanced.
The important takeaway is that while a walk is generally +.03 wins, it is not ALWAYS +.03 wins. It hovers around there.
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Can I get a clarification: are wOBA and WPA/LI the same stat? you seem to be using the acronyms interchangeably, so I’m guessing ‘yes’.
You can create a game-state-specific wOBA equation, such that wOBA gives a weight of 1 for a walk, hit, and HR in the “walk-off” scenario I described.
The common wOBA equation (.7 for a walk, .9 for a single, 2.0 for a HR) is basically the overall averaged version of all the possible game-state-specific equations. It is scaled like OBP.
WPA/LI is the game-state-specific wOBA equation, but denominated in wins.
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7th inning no outs, bases loaded down by 3 runs homerun is worth the same if it’s 3rd inning no outs up by 3 runs?
I’d have to run that exact scenario. It would probably be “close”.
The important takeaway though is that if a HR is less valuable in one situation, then the walk and singles are worth more in that situation. The overall positive event in the above two situations (in any two situations actually) is identical.
This is unlike WPA where if a HR is worth more, then it’s likely that all the other events are also worth more. And the average positive event in one situation had no bearing on another situation.
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For those asking for LI, there’s a three-part article, along with the LI chart.
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WPA/LI essentially Run Probability Added?
Close. First off, the stat you mention is on Fangraphs and it’s called RE24.
The difference is that a bases empty situation doesn’t give you much chance to add runs, while a bases loaded one does. So, a guy who has a disproportionate number of BL-to-BE situations will come out better than one who doesn’t even if they have identical hitting stats.
This is what I’m talking about in the article, which DOES describe RE24:
Let’s look at the last line in the chart again (bases loaded, 2 outs). The “run” value of the HR now shows only 1.15 runs. This seems like an absurdly low number. However, what this shows is the run impact of the HR, given the base/out state, with the leverage aspect deflated. If you take the run value (1.15) and multiply it by the LI (2.8) you get 3.27 runs. What this really means is that this one PA counts as 2.8 PA. And “each” of these “2.8” PA is worth 1.15 runs. So, the batter did generate 3.27 runs, but this was largely built on being placed in such a high-leverage situation. In essence, his one HR generated 3.27 runs in “2.8” PA. If we want to count this PA as a single PA, the impact of this HR is 1.15 runs per unleveraged PA.
So, RE24 is halfway between WPA/LI and WPA.
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Actually, an IBB is not always worth 0.
In wOBA, it is ignored in the numerator and denominator (like a sac bunt).
In WPA/LI, it gets the value of a regular walk (and since the IBB occurs in disproportionate game states, it comes out to having a value that is half that of a regular walk).
In WPA, it gets the leveraged-value of a regular walk.
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cards: I typically ignore IBB altogether, which is why I don’t make it a point to point that out each time.
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My biggest problem with my experience with WPA is the lack of fielder credit. All +/- goes to the batter and the pitcher which makes sense for the 3 true outcomes but not for a base hit. Failure to field a ball isn’t only the pitcher’s fault or the batter’s credit.
Then you must have a problem with a pitcher’s OBP and SLG allowed then.
Seriously, the stat is what it is, and you can’t ask more from it than what you ask of the staples.
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not a big fan of that concept personally.
But WPA/LI DOES count the IBB, and counts it properly.
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debating on whether I agree that a grandslam in the bottom of the 9th of a tie game should be considered equal to a bases loaded walk in the same situation. (I understand, just internally debating if I agree)
I can debate it for you. If you think the batter/pitcher change the approach to that particular game state such that they both realize that a walk is a HR, then, yes, you have to consider them equal (the players do).
If you think they don’t change their approach, OR, you think that hitting a HR in that situation is as indicative of talent as hitting a HR in any other situation, and drawing a walk in that situation is as indicative of talent in some random situation, then NO, you do NOT want WPA/LI.
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Now, can you explain in words how WPA/LI differs from RE24. What does it include that RE24 doesn’t? What does it exclude that RE24 includes? And why might one prefer WPA/LI? (Sorry if I’m being obtuse.)
RE24 counts a PA with bases loaded (about 2.8) more than it counts a PA with bases empty (about 0.7).
WPA/LI counts a PA identically across all game states (they all count as “1").
You can do RE24/LI to fix that problem.
So, the question is whether you prefer WPA/LI to RE24/LI. And the answer depends entirely on whether you think batters/pitchers change their approach only on the base/out states, or they also consider the inning/score.
If you don’t believe they do either, then you want a straight linear weights (or wOBA or EqA).
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We all accept they change their approach by count. I’m of the opinion they change it all the way.
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What does WPA/LI take into account that wOBA doesn’t? Or is it just wOBA converted into wins?
Well, the wOBA that is published is a pure linear weights equation.
WPA/LI is the game-state-specific wOBA. For example, the walk in the basic wOBA is always 0.7. In WPA/LI, the walk will be anything between 0.3 and 1.0, depending on how much win impact the walk has in that particular game-state. For example, in your traditional IBB situations, the walk value will be around 0.3. In your walk-off scenarios, the walk will be 1.0. The “0.7” that the standard wOBA equation uses is just an overall average.
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Hence my point that WPA alone should not determine the MVP.
Right. You need offense, defense, position, park, and opponent.
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Matt/97 has the best single recap of all my posts. If you follow that post, then your job here is done.
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My understanding, then, is that WPA/LI doesn’t exactly measure “clutch”.
Clutch is the difference between WPA and WPA/LI. This figure is reported at Fangraphs. There is no better two examples to this than David Ortiz and ARod.
Ortiz in that MVP-ish 2005 season was +3.3 wins just in clutch. This must be an historic-type of figure. In short, Clutch measured exactly how the Sox fans felt. He followed that up in 2006 with a +1.5 wins in clutch. His clutch score in 2007 imploded, even though overall, he was the same hitter. Redsox fans however did think he was different. So, Clutch measured Ortiz exactly the way the fans were FEELING, if not THINKING.
ARod on the other hand in 2006 was -1.4 wins, and Yanks fans always thought that he was “pressing” and was a choker. In 2008, he was even worse with an abominable -3.2 wins just in clutch.
Now, it seems to me that the clutch score will get used for MVP talk. Maybe not to the extent that you want to give Ortiz +3 wins and ding ARod -3 wins, but enough to break a tie.
So, WPA/LI gives you what you want, and Clutch gives you what you need, albeit one that you want to adjust. WPA/LI plus Clutch is WPA, and the problem with that is that we’ve already decided we don’t want the clutch part to count for so much.
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Matt/103: well-said.
I should also point out that if the Yanks are paying Mariano 15MM a year, then they believe that pitching 70 innings in a tight game does count for more than 70 innings at random points in a game.
If his salary (if not 15MM, at least 10MM) is at least indicative as to how much he is really worth to the team and to the fans and to the opposition and to his teammates, then you need some sort of WPA-like measure that overweights his PA.
And, if you do that to Mo, then you must do that to his opposing hitters. That is, you can’t say that Eck blew a big-time save, while Kirk Gibson hit another HR. It’s the same event, and you have to treat them at the same level.
WPA is the only stat that captures the feelings of the fans at that moment. That is its worth, that you can then ask for the 20 most “magical” batter/pitcher moments, and invariably get a list of the top 20 WPA plays.
Whether you want to credit Gibson more than he “deserves”, we’ll leave it to the observer.
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Just to piggyback on Studes/106, I’ll reiterate what I said:
If Johnny Damon is the leader in WPA in the AL, that simply means that he was involved in a ton of big plays. Whether he was lucky to be there is irrelevant to WPA. It simply tells us that he was there when great things happened.


Over at BBTF, you wrote:
“Clutch is the difference between WPA and WPA/LI.”
Has anyone used this measure of clutch to see if clutch hitting exists? For example, you mentioned AROD and David Ortiz having certain values for this in certain years. Does it seem like there is any persistence from year to year in WPA - WPA/LI? Or are players’ clutch ratings here random from year to year?