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Wednesday, August 11, 2010

The anti-Shea Hillebrand

By Tangotiger, 12:34 PM

As a followup to my Frenchy/Shea thread, how about I give you, since 1993, who has been a plus player at all five categories I mentioned (strike zone, power, contact, speed, fielding).  Basically, the five-tool players.  Here they are, in no particular order:
Carlos Beltran
ARod
Chase Utley
Larry Walker
JD Drew
Ellis Burks
David Wright
Grady Sizemore
Hanley Ramirez
Jeff Bagwell


#1    dave      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 13:05

No Pujols?


#2    Gerald      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 13:14

Definitely Pujols.  Robby Alomar.  Granderson?  Rolen in his prime (5 seasons of double digit steals for a 3B is pretty good).  Longoria is on his way.  Also if we’re going back to ‘93, Bonds was still pretty solid on D and a base-stealing threat back then.  Griffey as well.

Carl Crawford.


#3    frank pepe      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 13:38

barry bonds? or did he tail off in the speed category?


#4    dave smyth      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 14:05

Bagwell and Sizemore? I always thought they struck out more than average.


#5    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 15:03

Pujols: I based it on SB and 3B, and he is below average.  That means, he’s not a 5-tooler.

Alomar, for the period in question (1993-) was ever slightly below average in HR.  I mean, it’s close enough that if you want to argue it, then, yeah, he could be in there.

Granderson: bad on strike zone judgement.

Rolen: ever so slightly below average in speed.  Same reasoning as Alomar if you want to put him in.

Bonds: ever so slightly below average on BIP.  Same reasoning as above if you want to include him.

Junior: below-average on BIP (and speed, if you can believe it).  He’s not in, based on my 5 categories.

Crawford: bad on SZ, and below average on power.

Sizemore: good BB/SO ratio.

Bagwell: great BB/SO ratio.


#6    Jeff Z      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 15:14

David DeJesus


#7    Dingers      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 15:29

Good points on Bonds and Rolen.

Holliday’s someone else that popped to mind, but I guess he’s just below the cut as well


#8    Matt      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 15:32

Vlad


#9    Matt      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 15:40

.... and Torii Hunter


#10    Erik      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 16:08

What, no Derek Jeter?

This post just lost all credibility.


#11    Matt      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 16:14

JD Drew 13 Seasons:
47-3B 229HR 87SB 815BB 1054K .282career BA

Vlad Guerrero 15 seasons:

45-3B 428HR 179SB 713BB 914K .320 career BA

Vlad has unreal arm, more than above average fielder

advantage Vlad


#12    Matt      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 16:25

I remove Torii Hunter based on his terrible SO/BB ratio.... didn’t realize how bad it was


#13    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 16:52

Believe me, I wanted Vlad there.  It all depends where his fielding falls in.  If you use TZ, it doesn’t make the cut (-56 runs after positional adjustment), even with the unreal arm.

Vlad v Drew: it’s NOT a question of who is better.  It’s a question of who is above average in the five categories I identified (in scouting talk, whoever is 51+ in each component).  Bonds is an obvious example of someone who is 60 or 70 or 80 in 4 components and is a 49 in the fifth one.

Don’t take this too seriously.


#14    frank pepe      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 19:40

love this kind of fun stuff. thanks tom


#15    Grahamophone      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 20:12

In what area(s) was Barry Larkin below average?


#16    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 21:13

1993-onwards…


#17    BrianK      (see all posts) 2010/08/11 (Wed) @ 22:34

I haven’t read too many positive things about Hanley Ramirez’s defense. Do I have a misconception or are you saying that Ramirez’s defense, though average to below average for a SS, is better than the average for all players by virtue of the defensive spectrum? Are you comparing players defensively against their positional peers or against the entire set of major leaguers?

I am taking this too seriously.


#18    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/08/12 (Thu) @ 00:17

Right, including the positional adjustment.


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