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Friday, January 27, 2012

Relocated Team Doctrine v Stationary Team Doctrine

By Tangotiger, 04:03 PM

Great post:

Dale Hawerchuk was born in Toronto and played major junior in Montreal. He was drafted by Winnipeg, where he set records for nine years, and then traded to Buffalo. He skated briefly in St. Louis, ended his playing career in Philadelphia, and now coaches in Barrie. And yet it is only in an arena in Arizona that his number 10 hangs, retired, over the ice.
...
The solution to this is (like the Japanese answer to the paradox of Theseus’ ship) to assert that the essence of the team is in its form and its function rather than its substance. A team is not what it is but what it does, defined not by the specific people or buildings or shirts that it uses but by its position in a system of social relations. And in the case of a team, that position is inextricably and fundamentally linked to a place.

Now, I wouldn’t necessarily tie it to a place.  After all, if the Jets move from Long Island to NJ (or wherever they came from), that’s not a new thread.  What matters is the fan base.  Did the fan base follow the team, or not?  If so, link them.  If not, sever them.

So, you do this on a case-by-case basis, and thinking like an historian, and not trying to fit things into simple slots with simple rules.  Rules of thumb by definition don’t work all the time.

Did Jets fans follow the Coyotes?  Did they abandon the Coyotes when the new Jets arrived?

There’s no doubt that this applies to the Expos/Nationals:

Surely, a team that has to move is a black eye for the League, but a team that simply ceased to exist would be two black eyes, a broken nose, and a kick in the nuts. Because of this Doctrine, the NHL can say that it has not ‘lost’ a franchise since WWII killed off the New York Americans. Every other failed team has been bought or merged elsewhere, and every time that happens, the NHL manages to avoid taking direct responsibility for an unjustified or unstable overexpansion.

I don’t know how the Dodgers and Giants moving cross-country should be handled.  What we need is an understanding of their fan bases, and what happened after the Mets showed up.


#1    Michigan Matt      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 17:01

When the Cleveland Browns moved to become the Baltimore Ravens, didn’t they leave behind the history books?

That is, even though the new Browns are an expansion team, and the Ravens are the old Browns, the Ravens were treated as expansion and the new Browns got the history and records.

That’s the right way to do it.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 17:13

The “right” way is a case-by-case basis. 

I don’t follow the NFL, so maybe the LA/Oak Raiders share a fanbase?  If a new LA team comes along, will they abandon the Oakland Raiders?  So, there has to be thought, subject matter expert thought, into this.  It’s not for statisticians and leagues and marketers to establish history.


#3    Jessi      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 17:32

The SuperSonics history is definitely in Seattle. I agree, it’s all about fanbase. I think the Dodgers and Giants claim the history of the New York versions. Perhaps something that seems different about it is they kept the team name after their move, unlike the Nationals, Coyotes, Ravens, etc.


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 18:01

It’s clear the Nationals didn’t care about the Expos history.  They didn’t bother keeping retired numbers retired (in the beginning anyway).  Indeed, to see the retired Expos numbers, you have to go to Montreal’s hockey arena.  Washington fans are happy with their franchise, and Montreal fans are happy with theirs, and never the twine shall meet.  They may give out feelers, and whatever, but let’s be serious here.  Laziness is the only reason Nats/Expos records are kept together.


#5    kds      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 18:10

I agree with Jessi about the different reactions of the new locations fans.  But do the fans in the old city have any exclusive claim on anything?  When Tim Raines goes into the HoF can Montreal in any way prevent the Nationals from being involved.  This mostly has to do with feelings, and there aren’t going to be any clear cut answers.


#6    anon      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 19:20

Never the twain shall meet wink


#7          (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 21:12

In both the Browns and Sonics cases there were lawsuits involved and the settlement of those lawsuits expressly forbade the moving team to use the records, banners, logos, retired numbers, etc. of the prior team, and to leave them for a potential expansion franchise, which has happened in Cleveland, of course, and not (yet) in Seattle. 

As far as I know, no such situation for the Expos or the Thrashers (or the Coyotes).  So there’s no clear cut answer.  The SF Giants certainly display NY Giants retired numbers, even though how many SF fans can answer their kids’ questions about Mel Ott is debatable.


#8    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2012/01/27 (Fri) @ 21:52

Please, let’s not rely on the courts, as to how we should treat the history of our teams.


#9    Martin Monkman      (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 00:24

For anyone interested in the topic of fan loyalty, I’d recommend Roger Angell’s first book “The Summer Game”.  These are essays he wrote for The New Yorker starting in 1962, and many of the essays take the perspective of a baseball fan (which is what Angell is, rather than a sports writer). This was an interesting time for New York fans—it was 4 years after the Dodgers and Giants moved west, but there were plenty of NY fan loyalties to the relocated “brands”. In the 1962 World Series the Yankees beat the Giants, so those old cross-town rivalries had a chance to surface. Meanwhile, 1962 was the Mets’ first season, where they drew big crowds in spite of going 40-120.  It’s been a while since I read the book, but I vaguely remember some of the passages he wrote about fan attitudes. I’ll have to dig the book out and read it again.


#10          (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 01:06

I didn’t say the courts decided anything.  There were lawsuits and there were settlements, which turned into contracts.  A fan of the Sonics who wants to follow Kevin Durant’s career forever isn’t foreclosed from doing so, but he isn’t playing for a franchise than can display the 1979 championship banner or is foreclosed from issuing Lenny Wilkens’ number is all.  Trust me, here in Seattle that does mean a lot.


#11    kds      (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 05:32

#9, The 1962 Mets did not have great, or even very good attendance.  They were 7th/10, behind their fellow expansion team in Houston.  They barely had 1/3 of the Dodgers’.


#12    Martin Monkman      (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 11:03

kds/#11—right you are, the Mets did not have great attendance in 1962.  I was going by recollection, which now that I’ve taken the time to look up the data, is clearly faulty.  (Although to split hairs, the Mets outdrew the Colts on a per-game basis...)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1962-misc.shtml

What jumps out in the data table are the Dodgers.  That year they drew nearly 2.8 million fans, averaging 33,000 per game.  This was the first year that Dodger Stadium was opened, so perhaps there was “ball park novelty” as well as “relocated team novelty” driving attendance.  Next in attendance were the Giants, at just short of 1.6 million fans (~20,000 per game).  The Yankees are the first “established” team shows up on the list, with about 100,000 fewer fans than the Giants.  The other teams with better than a million fans that year were (in declining order) Twins, Tigers, Angels (who were also playing out of the shiny new Dodger Stadium), White Sox, and Pirates.

Has anyone looked at the impact on attendance of a team relocation, or the construction of a new stadium?  Time to fire up google…


#13    Bukanier      (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 11:55

I’ve always been wondering if there are any diehard Clipper fans left in the Buffalo area.


#14    Zac      (see all posts) 2012/01/28 (Sat) @ 20:56

The Milwaukee Brewers have retired Hank Aaron’s number 44 even though he had only 851 PA with the Brewers in the last two years of his career. I assume they felt that the Milwaukee franchise deserves to mention Hank Aaron, who played with the Milwaukee Braves from 1954 to 1965.

In fact, Braves retired numbers (and Hall of Famers) might belong to a player who played most of his career in Boston, Milwaukee, or Atlanta, given the three major moves of the franchise.

I agree that a case by case review is probably important, though our current society seems to hate grey areas in favor of clearly enumerated rules.


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