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Tuesday, January 08, 2008

Public v Private HOF ballots

By Tangotiger, 03:26 PM

The first column is the number of ballots posted publicly, or otherwise collected by Keith Law.  The second column is the percentage (based on 120 votes).  The next two columns is the difference between the actual counts released by the HOF and the Law numbers.  It shows that: 


Of the voters willing to talk about their ballots publicly or with Keith Law, 35% voted for Raines.  The private voters only selected Raines on 21% of their ballots.  Tommy John showed a reverse support: 18% willing to admit it, but 32% not willing to come forward in admitting it.  Don Mattingly had a similar split: only 5% of HOF voters willing to admit that he’s a HOF publicly, but 19% when guaranteed the cloud of secrecy.

Just look at the Raines/Mattingly gap.  Of the confidential guys, 90 said yes to Raines and 80 said yes to Mattingly.  But, when willing to come forward, 42 yes on Raines, and only 6 yes on Mattingly.  32% of the Raines voters were willing to admit to it publicly or to Keith Law.  Just 7% of Mattingly’s supporters were willing to come out and say it.

120 Law 423 Rest TOTAL
108 90% 358 85% Gossage
82 68% 310 73% Rice
79 66% 279 66% Dawson
79 66% 257 61% Blyleven
44 37% 191 45% Smith
58 48% 175 41% Morris
22 18% 136 32% John
42 35% 90 21% Raines
29 24% 99 23% McGwire
29 24% 70 17% Trammell
16 13% 72 17% Concepcion
6 5% 80 19% Mattingly
11 9% 71 17% Parker
13 11% 62 15% Murphy
4 3% 24 6% Baines

#1    Anthony      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 15:42

Not that I think Mattingly is more deserving than Raines (he isn’t) but I wonder how much better he’d look with advanced defensive metrics to validate his reputation. The one quick 1B study you did in a thread last week had him at +13 plays per year, I believe.

I could imagine Mattingly being in the 50 WAR range, which puts him in the same group as Puckett & Rice.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 15:46

Oh, and none of them willing to admit to these names:
Rod Beck
Travis Fryman
Robb Nen
Shawon Dunston
Chuck Finley
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Todd Stottlemyre


#3    ElBonte      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 16:32

I just typed a longer and more thoughtful version of this response that was destroyed, so I’ll simplify:

Wouldn’t the ballots that Keith Law counts tend to be skewed toward the Sabermetric point of view?  This seems to be the case for Blyleven, Raines, John.  See the THT article from yesterday titled “Tomorrow’s Cooperstown election results today” for a better explanation.

I tried to link to it but something was going wrong.


#4    JD      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 16:38

I have to ask this: Why does Tim Raines get no love?

He’s one of the few players who is great regardless of perspective. He had a fantastic OBP (was he the best player in baseball from 85-87? If not, he had to be pretty close), very nice power (mostly doubles and triples), etc.

He also had a .294 career average and 808 stolen bases (at nearly a 85% success rate).

He didn’t quite reach some of the counting stat milestones like 3000 hits, but why wouldn’t he get more votes? He’s great by every measure. Is it because his best years were 20 years ago, so people forget how good he was? 1987 was the last year he made an All-Star team; ‘89 was the last year he received an MVP vote.

Am I overrating Raines? I think he’s absolutely a Hall of Famer, and I’m not sure why he didn’t get more respect from voters.


#5    studes      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 17:40

JD, I’m a Raines supporter too, but I do understand why his candidacy takes some explanation to the typical BBWAA member.  Look at his BRef page:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/raineti01.shtml

You can see that the Hall of Fame monitoring systems all rank Raines highly, but not quite high enough on any system to call him a “likely” Hall of Famer.  And I believe these systems were based on Veteran’s Committee choices, as well as BBWAA choices.

All of these systems are based on “leading” the league in something, which Raines didn’t do as often as the Hall voters are looking for (except stolen bases).

And, on the surface, his profile isn’t very different from Kenny Lofton’s (his most similar player, according to BRef).

They’re overlooking changes in era, ballparks, the sheer audacious stolen base numbers and clutch hitting, among other things.  Those are things that require another level of study and thought.


#6    Keith Law      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 18:13

Wouldn’t the ballots that Keith Law counts tend to be skewed toward the Sabermetric point of view? 

Only in one respect - nearly all of the voters I polled were active badgeholders, whereas something like 200 of the 543 voters are retired, at least in BBWAA terms. I’d guess fewer than 10 of the ballots I counted were from non-badgeholders.

However, I was conscientious about reaching out to any voter I could contact, regardless of his bent. If I had limited this just to friends in the business, Raines would have polled over 50%.


#7    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 19:11

The BTF readers voted 99% for him.  It’s a fairly shocking split.  And Rice et al didn’t fare well with BTF readers.

Basically, BTF readers have come to accept the basics in run creation, fielding, and position.

The writers, however, are all over the place.


#8    ElBonte      (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 19:39

Keith/6:
I didn’t mean to imply that you were trying to contact only SABR-inclined voters, simply that those that are “friendly” would tend to be those that would respond to your request.

Obviously, Blyleven is the poster-child for the SABR community’s HOF arguments and would be a shoe-in if only SABR-friendlies were included in your balloting.

Do you agree with my point as an explanation for at least some of the discrepancies that Tango pointed out in the OP?


#9          (see all posts) 2008/01/08 (Tue) @ 19:45

I wonder how much the number of VC electees in a given year changes the voting.  I could certainly see some withholding votes they might normally cast if they thought the class was too large to begin with.


#10    JD      (see all posts) 2008/01/09 (Wed) @ 01:04

Studes,

Thanks for that. It does shed some light on my question. I was looking at full career numbers and relatively meaningless things like All-Star games (am I the only one that finds it amusing that writers talk about how silly certain things are - like voting for All-Star games - then use those same things are criteria for HOF induction?).

I could be wrong, but I think Raines will get in one day. Some of the 60% guys like Rice don’t have a lot of eligibility left. Either they get in or they’re off the ballot soon. Once that happens, it’s going to be Raines and a bunch of steroid-suspicion players. I think people will then look at Raines much more favorably. At least I hope so. What Blyleven is to most people, Raines is to me. I generally don’t care about the HOF, but Rock needs to get in.


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