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Tuesday, December 09, 2008

Primer on: The need for the positional baseline

By Tangotiger, 11:02 AM

Someone asked me, so here’s my reply:

At it’s most basic, the question is: “How would Willie Bloomquist field at each position, relative to the average player already at that position?”

It presupposes that Willie Bloomquist is not predisposed to have a special skill that can be leveraged more by one position than the other.  That is, he has average speed, average strength, average everything.  It doesn’t have to be literally Willie, but any composite will do.  Willie fits the definition so well.

Anyway, if Willie played SS, then the average SS would save 7.5 runs with the glove more than Willie would.  If Willie played 1B, then the average 1B would save 12.5 runs less than Willie would.

The problem that we are trying to rectify is finding some common baseline to compare each of our fielder to.  Since obviously the average SS is a far better fielder than the average 1B, we need to find a player who plays both positions, and is not a “natural” at either position.  That’s Willie.  I sometimes call this “Wins over Willie”.

With hitting, we don’t have that problem, because we know EXACTLY what the average hitter will do.


#1    ebc      (see all posts) 2008/12/11 (Thu) @ 17:46

A question about the particular position adjustments you use—specifically, third base.

Your adjustment suggests that third basemen and second basemen are (generally speaking) equally talented fielders, and you can move a player from one position to the other with no significant change in their fielding value. But as a group, third basemen are much better hitters than second basemen. Doesn’t this indicate a longstanding misuse of resources on the part of baseball teams? Shouldn’t they be moving their third basemen to second en masse?

The same applies to the third-to-first shift, but in the opposite direction. The defensive improvement relative-to-peers when you move a third baseman to first outweighs the offensive decline relative-to-peers.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/12/11 (Thu) @ 17:55

Tes, I think there is a massive disequilibrium in 2B/3B.  And teams are responding to that by paying 3B more.  That, by itself, isn’t proof.  But, it is some evidence.  It’s not like I’m comparing the salaries of 2B v RF.  2B/SS/3B are all “similar” in terms of our ability to figure out how good fielders they are, and whatever salary bias applies to their fielding would be even.

There was disequilibrium in the 1950s, when the CF outHIT the RF.  And at some point near there, the CF even outhit the FIRSTBASEMEN!


#3    Brent      (see all posts) 2008/12/31 (Wed) @ 16:56

Tango, I hope you get a chance to read this (I know this thread hasn’t been posted in for a few weeks): So, if your positional adjustments are the same for 2B and 3B, is the current defensive spectrum incorrect in its theory that 2B is a more premium position than 3B?  In other words, in the defensive spectrum should 2B and 3B be next to each other?  I hope this question hasn’t been answered, but I haven’t seen many posts that relates the defensive spectrum to the findings that 2B and 3B are more similar than conventional wisdom believes.  Thanks for answering my question!


#4    Brent      (see all posts) 2008/12/31 (Wed) @ 16:58

In addition, the only reason CF would still rank ahead in the defensive spectrum compared to 2B and 3B is b/c the two infield positions can move to CF whereas you rarely see a CF move to the IF, correct? Thank you again.


#5    TangoTiger      (see all posts) 2008/12/31 (Wed) @ 17:27

Right, I would say the fielding talent is found equally (more or less) between 2B and 3B.

I don’t understand post 4.  CF SHOULD be ahead of 2B/3B, but because all the lefthanded throwers are shutout of the IF, they fill up the OF pool, thereby making CF a less premium position than it should be.


#6    Brent      (see all posts) 2009/01/01 (Thu) @ 04:19

That’s what I thought.

That point is definietly true, but I didn’t know it accounted for CF being equal to 2B/3B on your adjustments.  What I was saying is that on the defensive spectrum (from left to right) CF are ranked after 2B and SS and I figured that it was b/c IF can move to the OF whereas OF rarely move to the IF.  I thought this made CF more valuable in terms of an adjustment, but the lefthanded throwers issue must make it equal…


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