THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

You need have or getting doctorate.

Unfortunately, I can’t really update the poll without causing some issues.

you also left out Associates

While the ACS’s educational-attainment variable is needlessly detailed (see http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downloads/PUMSDataDict08.pdf and search for SCHL), a standard collapse is something like HS-or-less, some college and AA, four-year degree, postgraduate degree.  Why not just update your post and say “Masters == Masters or higher”?

As I would have suspected, your readers are FAR better educated than average Tango.  Over 80% with a Bachelors+ so far, vs. about 25% for US adult population.  Not sure why you expected something different, if for no other reason than fact that people in blue collar jobs don’t get to spend time surfing the net during working hours!

Updated to reflect Master’s/Doctoral.

52 votes in, and 82% of Tango’s readership has at least a Bachelor’s degree, and another 9% is currently pursuing that degree.

Since only about 30% of the population at large has a Bachelor’s, that puts.  Sory, Tom, but that was not unexpected.

Also, for what it’s worth, the usual educational attainment breakdown is:
... some high school
... high school grad
... some college
... Associate Degree
... Bachelor’s Degree
... Master’s Degree
... Professional Degree
... Doctorate

First off, I expected alot more HS students, given the kind of emails I get.

Maybe I shouldn’t have said the public at large, but at least the blogging public.  What percentages of those who blog or frequent blogs have a Bacc. or higher?

Oops. I thought we were trying to guess Tango’s education level.

You can add a vote to “have a Master’s.”

#8/Tango

“First off, I expected alot more HS students, given the kind of emails I get.”

I’m curious...what kind of emails do you typically get from the young crowd?

I’d expect that most high school students would still be in school, or in after-school activities (hopefully playing baseball!). 

Google reveals a lot of informal surveys but nothing conclusive - everything I’ve seen though shows bloggers and blog readers (for some reason surveys seem to clump them together)with a higher level of education than the general population.  My non-random sample of google results ranged from 55% to 69% with a bachelors.

Tango’s emails apparently are complaints about Justin Bieber’s UZR.

Good point… let’s let those kids a chance to respond.

I get all kinds of stuff… help me with fantasy baseball… how can I do what you do… I have to write a school paper on baseball, I need your help… how can I get a job… what does “x” stat mean…

Really, it’s a long collection of emails.  I find it cool that even though they are young, they are open-minded enough to ask questions.

Of course, remember the selection bias inherent in any online poll.  By definition, you can only get votes from someone who actually reads the page and poll.  Incoherent email-writers don’t.

"Tango’s emails apparently are complaints about Justin Bieber’s UZR.”

Don’t forget about the new sensation, Greyson Chance…

BTW, what is a “professional degree” and how does that differ from a doctorate?

I think you have one:  JD.  Or MD or MBA.

MGL/15, I presume that refers to a licensed profession that requires technical training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_professional_degree

A first professional degree is an academic degree that prepares the holder for a particular profession by emphasizing competency skills along with theory and analysis. These professions are typically licensed or otherwise regulated by a governmental or government-approved body. Areas such as nursing, clinical labatory science, architecture, forestry, law, medicine, osteopathic medicine, chiropractic, engineering, dentistry, psychology, accounting, podiatry, audiology, physical therapy, optometry, pharmacy, social work, religious ministry, or education, among others, often require such degrees for licensing. Professional degrees, often taken as a candidate’s second degree after an undergraduate degree in an academic subject, are especially important in the United States. In the United States, many professional degrees are combined with graduate degrees, and some students undertake professional studies after graduate studies (MS or PhD). In some other countries, such as the United Kingdom, the study of vocational subjects at undergraduate level, and post-graduate qualifications outside the academic degree structure, also play a large role in professional training.

So if I were to take the exam and become a ‘Certified Photogrammetrist’ instead of just a Senior one.

I only have a 2 year degrees. I guess that I can’t vote.

Terps, you would be “finished high school”.

You select the first answer you can say “yes” to.  That’s why it’s ordered like that.

isn’t a law degree ("Juris Doctorate") a kind of doctorate? 
isn’t a Medical Doctor a kind of doctoral degree?

or does doctorate only refer to PhD here?

Yes, an MD and a JD or LLD is a doctorate.  I guess a “doctorate” is a PhD.  But, does an accountant or an architect or engineer have a “professional degree?”

So far 90+% of the 283 voters already have or will eventually have more educational experience than me.

MGL, that’s what I was referring to in #18.

Profession organizations can award ‘certifications’ based on the amount of work experience and a demonstrated knowledge of the field.

In the past, the American Society of Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing (ASPRS) required that a ‘Certified Photogrammetrist’ have supervisory experience. However, state and federal governments have moved to require licensing and certification for those actually producing the work delivered to the client. Things is, people in politics & govt don’t know the difference between surveying and photogrammetry. I can’t pass a surveying test, it’s not what I do, I only use data the surveyor gives me. So the society now offers various levels of certification depending on your job description. As I do data collection and analysis, something like 2/3 of my test would be on that, but they would still give me questions on other areas such as GIS. I don’t know all the GIS lingo, but I’ve found out I likely know more db programming than our GIS guy.

MGL/#22:  Reminds me of when my mother used to brag to her friends that I was a doctor---but not a “real” doctor.

20/dont you select the last question you can say yes to?

22/I am a CPA, but my education level is a BS degree. I passed a certification test (a long time ago), but don’t have any more offical schooling than others who never passed or took the certification test.

I got my degree to become a professional, but I really have a bachelor’s degree.

20/dont you select the last question you can say yes to?

Another silly rule I don’t subscribe to.  Once you answer yes, you stop.  That’s the way a programmer codes.

case
when statement1 then process1
when statement2 then process2
when statement3 then process3
else process4
end

So a masseur or a masseuses certification is a “professional degree?” How about a certified car mechanic?

Anyone who includes “professional degree” in their hierarchy is asking for trouble since no one knows what that means, unless they list all the professional degrees that qualify.

MGL, this is absurd.

Universities recognize their professional schools as distinct from their schools of arts and sciences, e.g., http://www.yale.edu/oir/factsheet.html (search for professional)

If you are a professional school, then you award a professional degrees. That’s a pretty simple dichotomy.

Also, your argument about certification for car mechanics being professional school is off point. I could just as easily say that a bachelor’s degree is silly distinction because a car mechanic school could award one.

Well, it is only absurd in that no one really cares.  However if you are doing a legitimate and possibly important survey, what is absurd is to include a category that most people have no idea what it means or what it includes, whereas the other ones are obvious.  And while we’re at it, your name (Jar Jar Binks) is absurd, or at the very least, makes your credibility a tad suspect.

Jeez, every time I post here you and Tango make fun of my username. Then, I point out it’s meant to mock the basic level of discourse on any given blog’s comment section and you guys concede that it’s kinda clever.

Anyways, it’s an important distinction because:

1) People that get MBAs/JDs/MDs are very different from people that get PhDs.

2) The returns to an MBA/JD/MD vs. PhDs are very different.

3) The cost, in terms of time and money, are very different for professional degrees vs. any other type of advanced degree.

Substitute PhD for MA and you get the same arguments, thus it makes sense to ask whether someone’s highest level of education is: some HS, HS diploma, some college, Associates, BA, MA, Professional degree, PhD.

Jar Jar, I am not disputing whatever distinction there might be between professional degrees and other degrees.  What I am asserting is that if you put that as one of your options in your survey, that not too many people know what that is, so what good does that do if you are the surveyor?  Does ANYONE actually take the time to read and think about what someone says when they write a comment?  Or do they just read every 4th word and then ascribe whatever meaning to it that suits them so that they can argue?

Everyone knows whether they graduated high school or not.  Everyone knows whether they have an associates or bachelors degree or not.  Everyone knows whether they have a masters degree or not.  Everyone knows whether they have a doctorate or not (PhD, EdD, LLD, MD, DDS, DO, JD, etc.).  You throw in “professional degree” into the mix and not too many people know what that is.  YOU may know what it is. It may even be a specific kind of a degree (although I doubt that), but the fact that YOU know what it is or the fact that there IS a distinction between a professional degree and a doctorate or a masters ain’t gonna help the person doing the survey when they get 11% of the people responding that they have a professional degree and they have no idea whether those people are engineers, architects, accountant, masseurs, certified auto mechanics, doctors, lawyers, etc.  I have a JD. I still have no idea whether that is a doctorate or a “professional degree” in your eyes.  I know it is a doctorate because that’s what it says on my diploma, but I think you are telling me that it is a “professional degree,” but I am not really sure.

So, again, you can tell us all what it is is or what you think it is, or what someone else or some web site tells is it is, until you are blue in the face, but if you put it as one of your alternatives in a survey, you are asking for trouble unless you specifically tell the readers exactly what kind of degrees you want to include in that category.

Ya got any problem with what I just said, or are you going to write another post telling us what professional degrees are and how they differ from other degrees?  Whatever it says on your diploma, that’s what you got.  If a surveyor wants something other than what is says on the diploma, he better make damn sure that he explains what it is he wants or it is obvious. Obviously “professional degree” is not obvious.  We can ask 10 really smart people on this site to give us 10 examples of professional degrees or the professions associated with them, and I am guessing that we will get 57 different responses (out of 100).

And I have no problem with your name, assuming that you are the high school student I think you are.  I was just teasing you…

29/ so if you get an art degree from Yale that is considered a professional degree?

and
31/ I still dont know what a professional degree is.

Perhaps this is just my bias, but I’m very used to seeing surveys ask subjects whether their highest degree is a professional degree or a doctorate degree.

For example, the Current Population Survey (off of which unemployment is calculated) which is conducted by the Census Bureau here is a link to the 1996 iteration: http://www.nber.org/cps/cpsmay96.ddf (I’m not cherry picking just this observation, btw, have a look at any of the surveys here: http://www.nber.org/data/current-population-survey-data.html).

You’ll see that they include the professional degree as an option for the variable PEEDUCA which is the highest level of education.

They also offer the following for professional degree (I included a few more too):

43 = Bachelor’s Degree (Ex: Ba, Ab, Bs)
44 = Master’s Degree (Ex: Ma, Ms, Meng, Med, Msw)
45 = Professional School Deg (Ex: Md, Dds, Dvm)
46 = Doctorate Degree (Ex: Phd, Edd)

I ran the same poll over at RoyalsReview and am coming up with almost identical results:

http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/5/27/1491038/education-level-of-royals-review#comments

I’d be interested to see the breakdown of degree types on this blog. The bachelor’s or greater population here is quite high, but I think this number even understates the attainment of the readers here- this blog obviously draws a mix of more technically oriented people than the average bachelor’s degree distribution would comprise.

The main disconnect between MGL and Jar Jar (beyond the fact that “not too many people know what that is” is MGLish for “I don’t know what that is") is the difference between a phone survey and an online survey.  Most surveys are done by phone, and the interviewers are trained to distinguish between PdDs and professional degrees (business, law, medicine, engineering), and between professional degrees and vocational degrees.  They will ask clarifying questions as needed.  In an online format, MGL is correct that showing both “doctorate” and “professional degree” would be confusing, so listing “PhD” would be more clear.  With that clarification, and by listing “professional degree” higher than both BA and Masters, I think doctors, engineers, MBAs, and lawyers (with one possible exception) would answer this correctly.

Is an MBA really a professional degree? What exactly is the profession of business? There isn’t really a certifying body for the profession. While MBA holders and business schools might like to pretend they are meaningful degrees on the level of law, medicine, and technical specialties, I think it is unclear what value is actually derived from business school education- and that the recent popularity of MBAs is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You only get an MBA because you need one to qualify for a certain position, and eventually most people at certain levels have MBAs whether or not the MBA program actually provided any value.

Sorry for the MBA rant, moving along now…
What you are able to learn seems clearly more important than what you already have learned, in this fast-changing world- that readers of this blog are interested in thinking and learning for its own sake is part of what makes such a great community.

I would be interested as well in what the types of specialties represented here are.  Math, statistics, engineering, computer science, etc…

#34/ Your link shows:

Professional School Deg (Ex: Md, Dds, Dvm)

Which I take to mean a doctorate other than PhD, and if the survey said that, then I am if we separate the lawyers from the PhDs -

32/ “ I know it is a doctorate because that’s what it says on my diploma” - sounds like a good rule to follow - maybe you say doctor of philosophy (PhD) and other doctorate as your categories.

37/ Is an Engineering degree then considered higher education than a masters? Is it higher than an accountant with a BS who is a CPA?
What are acturaries (sp?), architects, financial planners, etc. etc.

38/ I agree, a MBA is a master’s no more/no less

You only get an MBA because you need one to qualify for a certain position...

That’s certainly not why I got an MBA.  I got one because I wanted to become a businessperson after having spent several years as a social worker.  For me and, I would say, most of the people in school with me, an MBA represented a profession that we wanted to get into, as valid in that way as a JD.

Where’s the “six-time college dropout” button?

There’s the Bill Cosby route. Drop out of HS and eventually join the Navy. Get into college on an athletic scholarship, but drop out to go to work (in entertainment). Go back again later and get Master’s and PhD.

hey, lets leave justin beiber out of this. 

#38 - thats funny you bring up those issues since this laster semester that was a big to-do about whether my MBA class should voluntarily subscribe to the MBA-oath model propagated by the Harvard Business School. 

to me, an MBA doesnt train you for a profession in the same way as a JD or MD does, but its not nearly as useless and un-meritocratic (sorry if thats not a word) it often gets portrayed as being. of course im biased but i think most people would surprised at how progressive and rigorous a modern MBA curriculum is.  I was anyway.