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Thursday, December 29, 2011

Most inconsistent HOF ballot this year?

By Tangotiger, 11:11 AM

This blogger points out that Barry Bloom manages to include Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Fred McGriff on his ballot (all of which are justifiable to some extent), but Bloom is trying to argue that Jeff Bagwell does not belong with those guys, because he compares most favorably to… Steve Garvey?  Well, if you strip out the huge HR and huge walk advantage, then, yeah, sure, maybe.

***

I like what Posnanski said the other day about his HOF voting, where one year he will vote for a guy on a ballot, and another year he won’t.  And it’s not because the player did anything new (obviously he didn’t) but because Poz is looking at the evidence in a new way, a way he hadn’t considered.

So, let’s hope that Bloom will take the same approach next year, start Bagwell with a clean slate, and maybe he will come to see Bagwell as one of the greatest hitters of his generation.  Unless of course Bagwell gets his deserved enshrinement this year.

***

And don’t get me started on the voter who wouldn’t vote for Raines and his 808 steals because right behind him is Vince Coleman and his 752 steals.  Ok, you got me started.  As I noted a few years back:

The biggest debates for me were Tim Raines, who obviously was overshadowed by Rickey Henderson, but also if you take Vince Coleman’s five top years, I would say he outperformed Raines, too, and I don’t see Coleman as a Hall of Famer.
— Tracy Ringolsby

FACT

Just for fun, I took Coleman’s 5 best years. They were hard to find, but I settled on this: 85, 87, 89, 90, 92. That totaled 2818 PA. (If you prefer different seasons, let me know. ) I looked for Raines worst years (which includes alot of abbreviated seasons) to match that total. I came up with these years: 79, 80, 82, 91, 94, 96, 98, 99, 02. The total of Raines’ worst years was 2820 PA. Ok, so we have two partial careers of exactly the same length (in plate appearances), one for the guy at his best, and the other for the guy at his worst. Coleman outscored Raines, by 25 runs. Raines outRBIed Coleman by 78. Raines also did that while using up 99 less outs.

The batting line:
0.275 0.337 0.355 Coleman
0.266 0.363 0.371 Raines

Raines, at his very worst, is better than Coleman at his very best.

I believe Ringolsby has seen the light, putting Raines on his ballot this year.  So, it is possible to look at the same data in a new way, and be convinced that you were originally wrong.  Congratulations to Ringolsby!  Maybe that other voter who saw Raines and Coleman in the same boat will also see the light.


#1    pm      (see all posts) 2011/12/29 (Thu) @ 18:57

McGriff’s reminds me of Jim Edmonds future case. Edmonds has a .903 OPS but he is short of the elusive 400 HR mark by 7 HR. Edmonds WAR is 67.9. I wonder if Edmonds is going to get hurt by the backlog of guys from the 90’s 5 years from now. There are a lot of good candidates that will be blocked (Sheffield, Guerrero, Biggio, Rolen)


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/12/29 (Thu) @ 19:53

Edmonds is more like Larry Walker… short (for HOF) career, really good hitter, good outfielder.


#3    pm      (see all posts) 2011/12/29 (Thu) @ 20:37

What do you think is going to happen to the hall in the next 5-10 years when so many good candidates that would have been shoo-ins in the 80’s will be forced to compete against each other.

2012:
Larkin
Bagwell
Walker
Martinez
Trammell
Palmeiro
Raines
McGwire
Bernie Williams

2013:
Bonds
Schilling
Sosa
Biggio
Clemens
Piazza
Lofton

2014:
Edmonds
Glavine
Kent
Maddux
Mussina
Thomas
Alou

2015:
Delgado
Garciaparra
Giles
Randy Johnson
Pedro
Sheffield
Smoltz

2016:
Griffey
Hoffman
Pettitte
Wagner

By my count, that is 36 legitimate candidates in the next 6 years. Not all of them will be elected. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. A guy like Smoltz would have been a lock 10 years ago, must have to wait a few turns. This list doesn’t even include guys I see retiring in the next 2 years that could factor in the HOF.

Rivera
Thome
Chipper Jones
Ramirez
Rolen
Beltran
Guerrero
Ichiro
Giambi
Damon
Posada
Tejada

Amazingly enough, the above list only has 1 pitcher (Rivera) because I don’t see any pitchers who will retire in the near future who are HOF caliber except Roy Halladay and his retirement is a ways off. That could be good news for Mussina, Smoltz, and Schilling who won’t be facing much pitching competition after the 1st ballot locks get elected (Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, etc.)


#4    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/12/29 (Thu) @ 21:15

Yeah, we’ve talked about this several times.  The ballot and the PED can end up being a huge bottleneck.

It’s basically Occupy Ballot… you’ve got so many good candidates, that something has to be done.


#5    Frankie Futon      (see all posts) 2011/12/29 (Thu) @ 22:31

The cherry on top of this is that Bloom actually did vote for Garvey: 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070107&content_id=1774441

So he thinks Garvey and Bagwell are similar.  Yet he votes for Garvey but does not vote for Bagwell. 

He also voted for Paul O’Neill and Tony Fernandez.  But not Bagwell.  There is no logical explanation for this other than Bloom doesn’t really take this seriously.


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