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Thursday, April 02, 2009

MGL in… SI

By Tangotiger, 07:33 AM

Yet another MGL sighting.

(If link doesn’t work, try this one.)

In 2003, in a forum on the website Baseball Think Factory, a professional poker player living in Las Vegas named Michtel Licthman introduced, in a 6,800-word primer, a metric that he called Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR). Lichtman was crunching numbers with data he purchased from STATS Inc.—paying nearly $10,000 for it annually—and, like Dewan, was measuring the runs saved or lost by every fielder compared to the league average at his position. His UZR model was similar to the plus/minus system that Dewan had come up with, but with more parameters for each batted ball; among them, the ballpark, whether the pitcher and batter were left- or righthanded, and the ground ball and fly ball tendencies of the pitcher.

...
That same year the Cardinals hired Lichtman as a consultant. But during his time with the organization Lichtman was mostly frustrated that even a team open-minded enough to hire him—he had been recommended to the team’s ownership by vice president of player personnel Jeff Luhnow—was so hesitant to embrace his analysis. “I met [manager] Tony La Russa once,” says Lichtman, “and he had no interest in what I was saying. Tony was not into it; [general manager] Walt Jocketty was agnostic.”

This winter Lichtman, who left the Cardinals after the 2005 season, made UZR—considered by many to be the most comprehensive defensive metric out there—available to the public on the website FanGraphs, which will update player stats weekly during the season. “The funny thing is, all this information is now available free for anyone to see, so there’s really no reason for teams to do their own thing,” says Lichtman. “Yet it’s clear that half to three quarters of the teams still have no clue how to evaluate defense on that level and how to interpret that into a player’s overall value.”
...
When asked how much further defensive metrics can go, Lichtman says the analysts are “90 percent there.” The other 10% will be reached when teams and companies such as Baseball Info Solutions and STATS Inc. start tracking the hang time of a ball and the exact positioning of a defender, as well as the player’s route to the ball.


#1    King Yao      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 08:28

Interesting article, thanks.

MGL, were you quoted correctly in this article?

As a Yankee fan, I wonder - is Jeter’s defensive negatives going to get worse and worse even if he stays the same?  With more and more teams getting smart about defense, does it mean that any player’s defensive liabilities become more glaring because other teams don’t have as many liabilities as before?  In other words, if everyone improves, but one team stays the same, then that seems the team that stays the same will be at a bigger disadvantage than if everyone was clueless.


#2    Peter Jensen      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 09:17

His UZR model was similar to the plus/minus system that Dewan had come up with,

This reversal of chronology must irk MGL.


#3    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 09:39

If Vinton Cerf doesn’t mind that Al Gore invented anything, I guess we can all live with reverse chronology issues.

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200009/msg00052.html

Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf
Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development.

No one person or even small group of persons exclusively “invented” the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community.  But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore’s contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.

Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role.  He said: “…

You can easily replace Cerf with MGL, Gore with Dewan, and internet with UZR and come away with a decently accurate version.


#4    Graham Goldbeck      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 11:21

MGL you used to be a pro poker player? What game?


#5    dan      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 13:33

Jeez, how many times can you misspell a man’s name?


#6    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 13:40

People always ask “Why Tangotiger”?  Why not a regular name?

No one ever misspells Tangotiger, and it’s unique.  I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen “Mitchel” be written as something other than that, not to mention “Lichtman”. 

We should all have internet handles.  I have yet to see anyone misspell “mgl”.


#7          (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 16:18

MGL, did you have to kill Albert Chen after he found out your day job? wink


#8    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 16:34

It sounds like they got the quotes more or less correct (maybe exactly) in this one.

Good article overall other than butchering my name a couple of times (where are the editors??).

“Looking back through the years, most really good teams have had really good defense,” says Blengino. “The Yankees have struggled defensively the last few years, but when they won, they didn’t. With a really good defense, you can’t be a bad team. You can be a .500 team. But it’s hard to be really bad with a good defense.”

Hopefully Tango will straighten Blengino out on that! wink

Maybe the really good teams did have really good defense, on the average, but of course there is no particular reason I can think of why the really good teams would be more likely to have good defense than good offense or good pitching (of course if you have good defense, it will show up in the pitching, which is probably why good teams tend to have REALLY good pitching - because that is actually pitching AND defense).  And BTW, ALL good teams will have above average everything, on the average.  There is no magic in having good defense, just like there is no magic in having good pitching.  Is defense the “new pitching?” Are we going to hear now how playoff caliber teams must have good defense, and you how you can’t win without good defense and you “can’t have too much defense?” Defense, defense, defense! wink

The statement “that with a good defense, you can’t be a bad team” is utter nonsense, other than with a good ANYTHING it makes it harder to be a bad team!


#9    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 16:55

Right, I agree with MGL that basically +80 runs in fielding is just as good as +80 runs in pitching or +80 runs in hitting, and that good teams are (on average) good at everything.

That is, if you take all the playoff teams since the Wild Card and you take the 8 worst teams in the league each year in the same time period, you will almost surely see something like this for the playoff teams:

offense: +50
pitching: +30
fielding: +20

And just flip the sign for the bottom teams.


#10    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 17:43

Just tossing out a thought here:  would +80 runs hitting not be better than +80 runs hitting, in that it spares your pitching staff some wear and tear, and presumably allows your better pitchers to pitch a higher % of your innings?


#11    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 17:44

Arghh..  I meant wouldn’t +80 runs fielding be better. 

Where’s my editor?

And by the way, you guys are all amateurs in terms of enduring butchering of one’s last name…


#12          (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 18:51

re. good teams being good at everything--at one level this has to be right.  but I wonder:  surely the major big complicating factor is that the guys doing the hitting & fielding are one set of guys, the guys doing the pitching are another set…

to oversimplfy greatly: the two big roster $ choices are
a) to spend a higher or lower % of payroll on pitching and
b) within the “hitting+fielding” category, which to emphasize (given how talent works at the edges)

but it seems to me that it would be relatively hard to find teams with equal strengths in hitting AND fielding at the expense of pitching....


#13          (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 19:58

Greg, sure.  There are nuances within the “all runs are created equal” paradigm that make it not precisely true.

nick, not sure what you mean.

Graham, I played poker before the “poker craze.” There was virtually no “no limit holdem” other than occasionally during tournament time.  I played limit holdem, pot-limit Omaha, limit and pot-limit Omaha high low split, and occasionally some variation of HORSE (mixed games).


#14    traced      (see all posts) 2009/04/03 (Fri) @ 20:15

i can’t believe how much you’ve paid for the stats inc. data.


#15    nick      (see all posts) 2009/04/03 (Fri) @ 20:48

mgl--just commenting on the statement “good teams are (on average) good at everything"--my point was perhaps too obvious:  that pitching, hitting and fielding can’t be treated as three independent commodities, since guys who hit are also guys who field.  I was wondering whether this fact meant that certain combinations of team above-averageness might be more common than other combinations....


#16    greenback06      (see all posts) 2009/04/03 (Fri) @ 21:00

MGL, I can understand why you wouldn’t want to kiss and tell, but can you give any hints to what exactly was discussed with La Russa?


#17    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/04/03 (Fri) @ 23:41

I was wondering whether this fact meant that certain combinations of team above-averageness might be more common than other combinations....

That is probably true for several reasons, not the least of which is that front offices construct rosters according to their idea of what makes for a good team.  For example, if teams knew not how to evaluate defense, we would probably see lots of good teams with good pitching and hitting, but somewhat average defense.

I don’t remember that well what was discussed with LaRussa.  It was over 5 years ago.  I can give you one anecdote, however.  I was showing him how I can run computer simulations to compute each team’s chances of beating another team and that I can even use those simulations to forecast each team’s chances of winning X games for the season, making the post-season, etc.

I actually showed him on my laptop.  I ran some sims of games between the Cards and the Cubs.  I then told him that I ran the whole season several hundred thousand times and that the Cards won the division X percent of the time and the Cubs won Y, etc. I forgot exactly how the whole thing went down.  At the time, I thought that might impress him.  Little did I know…

I forgot exactly the tone of his reaction, whether it was disdain or glassy-eyed apathy, but he said something like, “How the hell can the computer know who is going to win the division when I don’t even know my starting rotation yet!” This was the beginning of spring training in 2004.  And the last time I ever spoke to him.

I am not disparaging him at all, nor casting any aspersions on his intellectual capacity whatsoever.  It is just that he was not into sabermetrics then and probably is not now, which is interesting as he is somewhat of an “outside the box thinker,” although I suspect that is more ego-driven than anything else…


#18    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/04 (Sat) @ 09:48

MGL, were you on his lawn when you did that?


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