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Monday, November 07, 2011

“Math scares people”

By Tangotiger, 03:22 PM

Billy Beane:

So yes, there was certainly some resistance internally, but anytime there is mathematics involved there’s going to be a certain amount of resistance. I think 99 percent of us have some resistance because going back to seventh grade, and when are we going to use this [math], and now you’re seeing somebody use it!
...
The great thing about math is there something logical to it, so once we had faith in it among a small group of us, we did really feel like we weren’t taking a risk. You know, it didn’t seem risky to us. That’s what everyone asks all the time, and quite frankly, we were wondering why doesn’t anybody else get this?!

And on Moneyball itself:

So, now you’re starting to get a movement… if there’s anything I think the book did, I think it accelerated it by putting it [sabermetrics] out there for everybody. It was gonna happen anyways.

Also the parallel with technology helped it take off—access to information was all over the Web because it was being gathered. You know, whereas before Bill James was doing it—and he used to print basically these tight little pamphlets—and even some of the stuff that we were originally using was somewhat, not literally, but was somewhat manual, related to how information is gathered today.

I think the parallel with technology also helped it take off, because it just gave it access to more people out there who were sort of running their own models as well. So, there was just more and more evidence that there was something to this.

And Michael Lewis on the parallel between world finance and baseball:

And they rated things as AAA so they could sell them. Because once you got that point you had a whole group of unthinking buyers who just accepted the stats—kind of in the same way that someone in baseball might used to say, “The guy hits .300, he must be really good.”—without thinking whether or not his hitting .300 leads to runs.
...
I think the Wall Street story is as illustrative as the Moneyball story… Just be very careful what you measure, because the minute you start measuring the wrong thing it becomes a fetish.


#1    Geoff Buchan      (see all posts) 2011/11/07 (Mon) @ 22:16

Amusing comment from Lewis. I remembered thinking when I first read Moneyball that it was the same story as Liar’s Poker, but with sabermetric analysts revolutionizing baseball as quants did finance in the ‘80s.


#2          (see all posts) 2011/11/07 (Mon) @ 23:00

I’ve always thought that the reason that many sportswriters are hostile to sabermetrics and the analytical approach to sports is because they are innumerate. It would be interesting to know how many of them even know the difference between the median and the mean.


#3    mettle      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 01:44

I’d be curious too (#2) because guys like TLR are awash in numbers, but irrelevant ones. One of the points these guys are making is that you can very easily be obsessed with numbers - BA, RBI, Dustin Pedroia’s SLG% with a man on second in the day time against CC Sabathia on Tuesdays - and still be far off the mark.

It’s not about numbers, it’s about the scientific method.
(Were I tango, I might say: It’s not about numbers, it’s about the truth)


#4    Bill Waite      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 08:48

Honestly, I think it’s not that they’re afraid of math; like mettle pointed out, some of these guys are obsessed with numbers.

I think a big part of the disconnect is that math guys don’t give very engaging explanations. The typical story I hear is of a numbers guy just saying “the numbers say you have to do X” or “you have to ignore those numbers because of small sample size”.

And for a human who doesn’t understand math, that’s not a very compelling argument because it doesn’t work on the instinctive level. Nobody instinctively knows what “small sample size” means, and humans are genetically designed to extrapolate patterns from small samples. Instead of SHOWING the person what’s wrong with using the wrong numbers in a way that humans instinctively understand, most numbers guys just TELL them that there’s SOMETHING wrong with the numbers they’re using.

So the human is basically forced to decide whether to trust the mathematician (who claims you’re doing something wrong, but how many idiot reporters have claimed the same thing?) or just to keep trusting your gut. And guys with big egos in positions of power are often going to trust their own guts a lot more than they should.


#5    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 10:25

I’d be fine with a person trusting his gut. If he simply says: “I think that, in this spot, David Freese has the true talent level of Albert Pujols on an average day”, or that “Chris Carpenter’s A’s game is better than Jason Motte’s B game, and today, I believe that Carpenter is on his A game”.

Fine.  All that is fine.

I’m not fine when it comes to his interpretation of numbers.  If he concludes that Freese is Pujols today because of how he interprets the numbers, or that Carpenter is on his A game because of how he interprets the numbers.


#6    Bill Waite      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 11:21

I’m not saying a person SHOULD trust his gut. I’m just describing how I think people actually behave.

They instinctively do something wrong, a numbers guy gives them a non-intuitive explanation of why their instincts are provably, mathematically wrong but they don’t understand the explanation beyond, “This numbers guy says I’m doing something wrong. Should I trust him because he says he’s a numbers guy or should I ignore him and (incorrectly) trust my gut?”

And most people will incorrectly trust their gut in that context.


#7    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 12:17

A numbers guy shouldn’t say the other guy is wrong, unless he’s either accounted for all the parameters, or can reasonably show that the missing parameters are beyond the error range of his conclusion.

My example of Bonds and the “don’t walk” and “walk him” and “go with gut”. I give a certain allowance for the unknown.  But it has to be a reasonable allowance, and not so wide that every decision is “go with gut”.


#8    mettle      (see all posts) 2011/11/08 (Tue) @ 13:56

Jayson Stark, by the way, is the perfect example of someone completely obsessed with numbers and at the same time, completely clueless. His columns are truly maddening to read - far more so than Murray Chass because at least Murray knows what he believes. Stark considers himself a numbers guys and saber-friendly but comes up with the most idiotic statements. He truly exemplifies the random-number-generator-narrative comic.

There’s a difference between being obsessed with numbers and understanding numbers. I think the concepts behind the numbers—sample size, regression, correlation and causation, randomness, hypothesis testing, value quantification—are ideas that are most easily described with numbers but are ultimately *qualitative* in nature.
If a numbers person doesn’t understand these, s/he will persistently go astray.


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