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Monday, February 11, 2008

How you can support just about any argument using silly statistics and logic…

By , 09:12 PM

This is from Chris Jaffe, no less, a baseball analyst.  While I have read plenty of his stuff and I recognize the name, I admittedly know little about him (and get him mixed up with the other Jaffe). This is also an example of how when you start writing for a (somewhat) mainstream web site or publication, you invariably develop a case of “I can write crap too, just like the rest of the guys (mainstream writers)...” (See my past comments about Keith Law.)


On THT, they are having a “roundtable” (which I hate in and of itself) discussion about the Bedard trade. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/tht-round-table-erik-bedard/

Jaffe says these things:

If he can post an RA around 3.00—which isn’t likely admittedly, but is possible—over 190 innings (his normal amount) he can save the team about 90 runs (!?!) over what they got from their back-end last year. Jeepers.

Why does he pick an ERA of 3.00 when he admittedly says that it is not likely?  Let’s see, “If Peavy posts an ERA of 1.00 this year, which is not likely but possible, the Pads will...”

Seriously what is the point of picking a number that is not likely but possible (any number is “possible” for any player) in order to make a point?

The second part of his argument which is just plain wrong, and he points to this several times, is the idea that the value of a player to a team or how much a player adds to a team as compared to a previous year, is the difference between a player’s projection (in this case, it is not even the projection of course, it is the silly “possible ERA of 3.00") and the WORST performance on their team.  The worst performance by some subset of a team, after the fact, is almost always going to be less than replacement level for obvious reasons.  There was some discussion of this phenonmenon when someone wrote an article wherein they were trying to determine, after the fact, the average ERA (or whatever metric they used) of a 1st-5th starter and they made the mistake of defining each category based on the best and worst performances among starters, after the fact, which is the wrong way to do it of course.

Anyway, the notion that with Bedard, the M’s are 9 wins better is preposterous, which should be obvious even to a casual analyst without doing ANY calculations.

I’m a firm believer that one of the easiest (and more silent) ways to substantially improve a team is to begin with absolutely horrible back-end pitching (even by the standards of back-end pitching) and replace it with league average pitchers. Everyone expects a fourth or fifth starter to be lousy, but some are lousier than others. Based on my own numbers-farting, replacement level is around 78-80 ERA+.

Really? While it is true that many or perhaps most teams’ 5th and 6th starters are at or near replacement level, he writes as if a league average starter grows on trees and is cheap, neither of which is true.

If everyone stays reasonably healthy and effective, they Ms could have one of the best rotations in baseball.

That is the same thing as saying, “If everyone on the Rays hits a lot and remains in the lineup, they will score a lot of runs.  If what he meant was that the M’s have one of the best rotations in baseball, and I don’t know if that is true or not without looking at the projections, that is what he should say, without adding the silly, “If everyone stays healthy and effective.” That is a tautology, really.

I probably haven’t made my point real well, so just read the “roundtable” and see what you think.

BTW, there was nary a mention of the fact that this was a pathetically poor trade for the M’s.  They gave up a player (Jones) who is protected for almost 6 years and has a projection of around 20 WAR over those 6 years, for a player (Bedard) who is protected for another 2 years and has maybe 7-8 WAR in those 2 years.  My back of the envelope calculation on the Vegas Watch web site http://vegaswatch.net/2008/02/bill-bavasi-and-pythagoras-are-not.html had the M’s giving up around 54 million in equity, just considering Jones and Bedard.  And if the M’s managment thinks that they are in the sweet spot of playoff contention right now, based on their 88 wins last year, they are probably sadly mistaken, as Vegas Watch points out in the above referenced article.

#1          (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 00:44

MGL, not sure if you read the full thing, but we did mention at the very end of the roundtable (see my comment) the delusion that M’s management is operating under.


#2    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 04:41

Sal, yes I did.  That does not excuse the poor (non, I should say) analysis of the trade, which I think was supposed to be the crux of the article, no?  And the silly and trite (in my opinion) comments by Chris.


#3    studes      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 09:22

No, not really an analysis.  As the title says, the article was a “round table,” an email discussion of the trade.  If we had wanted to “analyze” the trade (and maybe someone will), we’d use a different format—notably we’d have one person write it so it could be more focused.

I did find Chris’s primary point compelling—that adding a top-end pitcher without giving up someone else in the rotation can have a dramatic effect because of the “chaining” phenomenon in a starting rotation.


#4    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 16:11

I find it interesting that a couple of smart guys are defending a bad article on empty legs.  Analysis, discussion, whatever.  No mention of the gigantic difference between Jones’ and Bedard’s equity value is what I would expect from Steve Phillips on ESPN (or any mainstream outlet).


#5    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 16:24

I didn’t say that the article was without merit, by the way, and I am generally a big fan and regular reader of THT.

It just struck me when reading this particular article that some of the comments, especially those by Jaffe, were silly and misleading, and it struck me further that there was no little or no mention of the overall trade value of either player (Jones or Bedard).  How can you not mention the trade value of the two pricipals of a trade in an article on a sabermetric web site that “discusses” the trade?


#6    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 16:39

I would hope that every trade is evaluated by the analysts in terms of Santana Properties or Bedard Holdings.

You have potential wins this year, next year, and for the next 4 years to evaluate, as well as the cost for all those wins, plus baseball inflation, and the salvage values.  I know it’s very unromantic, but that’s the way the world works these days.


#7    studes      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 18:35

I find it interesting that a couple of smart guys are defending a bad article on empty legs.

MGL, this is typical of you.  How was I “defending” the article?  By pointing out a good thing about it?  I didn’t disagree with you.  Or maybe you missed that.

And then you admit that you didn’t say the article wasn’t “without merit?” Ridiculous.


#8          (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 21:53

But the award for worst article of the week from a supposedly “sabermetric” author goes to Joe Sheehan, today at BP. It seems like we could establish an Olbermann/O’Reilly thing here with Sheehan playing the role of the Frank Burns of news.

“The key again will be how the defense, one of the two best in baseball last year, holds up behind a staff that puts it in play.”
He’s speaking of the Rockies, who ranked 8th in PMR, 13th by the fans, 11th by UZR, and 17th by Dewan’s +/-. Saying they were of the best last year, presumably based on BP’s garbage FRAA stat, is an argument bereft of merit.

“John-Ford Griffin is in camp. . . However, and take this with a grain of salt, he has a career line of .304/.370/.696 in 27 plate appearances. Aren’t you just a little curious?”
This is worse than most of what mainstream journalists write.  He’s a corner outfielder projected to have a .309 woBA by both ZiPS and CHONE.

“[Fred] Lewis is more or less what Randy Winn was back when Winn was good”
Winn is still useful by the way, an average hitter and pretty good fielder albeit at an outfield corner. Of course, he once was quite good, a +12 offensive player and a defensive asset from 02-04. Lewis is projected to be a -6 and -3 offensively by ZiPS and CHONE, respectively.

And those are just the things obviously wrong and deceitful about the article. Sheehan repeatedly makes assertions backed up by absolutely nothing in the way of evidence. Whether or not they have merit or not is not up to the reader to figure out, the author has to back up his own claims otherwise it’s unsubstantiated garbage that ought be disregarded.


#9    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 22:09

#7, No what is ridiculous - perposterous actually - is you saying that you were not “defending the article.”

No, not really an analysis.  As the title says, the article was a “round table,” an email discussion of the trade.  If we had wanted to “analyze” the trade (and maybe someone will), we’d use a different format—notably we’d have one person write it so it could be more focused.

If that is not a “defense” of one of my criticisms, I’ll stop posting forever, as of now.  In fact, I’ll invoke my, “Put your money where your mouth is” rule, Studes.  We’ll put this up to some kind of a reasonably fair vote.  Granted, the answer is subjective, but if the voters think that you were not “defending” my criticisms (a simple yes or no), I’ll donate $1,000 to your faveorite chairty and if I win, you can donate $100 to mine.  How’s that for odds! smile


#10    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 22:37

The key again will be how the defense, one of the two best in baseball last year, holds up behind a staff that puts it in play.”
He’s speaking of the Rockies, who ranked 8th in PMR, 13th by the fans, 11th by UZR, and 17th by Dewan’s +/-. Saying they were of the best last year, presumably based on BP’s garbage FRAA stat, is an argument bereft of merit.

I give him a pass on that if he is going by his own web site’s FRAA stat.  You don’t expect him to say, “We have them as the second best defensive team, but our fielding stats suck, and everyone else has...,” do you?  FWIW, I have the Rockies at 8th best (team UZR) in the NL.

Also, FWIW, I can’t stand analysis that begins with, “If X holds up..” What does that even mean?  Can I say, “If the Mets have good defense next year, they hit the ball well, especially in the clutch, and their pitching holds up, I expect them to do well?”

John-Ford Griffin is in camp. . . However, and take this with a grain of salt, he has a career line of .304/.370/.696 in 27 plate appearances. Aren’t you just a little curious?

That is an abomination!  It should be illegal to even present a BA/OBA/SA stat line for 27 PA.  The guy has over 1900 PA in MLB, AA, and AAA with a total lwts (major league) of -20 per 150 games.  He can’t hit a lick and will be 29 years old this year.  No, I don’t think ANYONE is the least bit curious!

[Fred] Lewis is more or less what Randy Winn was back when Winn was good

You (Phil) are right again.  I have Lewis projected at -4 per 150 going into his peak age year.  Winn, at 34, is still projected a little better (I have -3), is a well-above average defensive corner OF’er (probably average at least in CF), and was WAY better than Lewis offensively at his peak age, 6 or 7 years ago.  I don’t know about Lewis’ defense, but I think Winn WAS way the better player and probably still is.

From Phil (not Joe):

And those are just the things obviously wrong and deceitful about the article. Sheehan repeatedly makes assertions backed up by absolutely nothing in the way of evidence. Whether or not they have merit or not is not up to the reader to figure out, the author has to back up his own claims otherwise it’s unsubstantiated garbage that ought be disregarded.

Bad attitude, arrogance, etc. (like I have) does NOT give samermetrics and sabermetricians a bad name.  Bad information does.


#11    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 22:42

I just looked at Sheehan’s article, and though I did not read it, I have to give him a general pass.  He writes a kind of ESPN-type ST summary about each team in the NL west.  Hard to expect him to do a thorough job with this type of thing.  And let’s face it, you are rarely going to get the most rigorous analysis from Joe.  He is one of the more “mainstream” writers on the site, no?


#12    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/02/12 (Tue) @ 22:52

MGL/9: you obviously haven’t accounted for the possibility that some readers here will simply vote against you so that some charity will have an extra 1000$.

***

Bad attitude, arrogance, etc. (like I have) does NOT give samermetrics and sabermetricians a bad name.  Bad information does.

Only MGL can insult himself, but actually be insulting someone else even more!

***

As for Sheehan, this Jack Morris article was probably his best and most inspiring sabermetric article ever:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815

That’s the Joe Sheehan that BP needs more of.


#13    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 01:12

MGL/9: you obviously haven’t accounted for the possibility that some readers here will simply vote against you so that some charity will have an extra 1000$.

I have faith in the intellectual honesty of our readership! wink


#14          (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 01:39

For the record, I vote Studes. He was defending the idea, not the analysis presented.

Tango/12: On Baseball Analysts Joe does sabermetric studies. They’re often done with pitch f/x data that he doesn’t use on BP (for some reason).


#15    MB      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 01:41

I just read Sheehan’s little Padres preview. He says:

“it may be time for the Pads to blow off a year” ... “This Padres team starts far enough behind the Diamondbacks and Dodgers, as well as the Brewers and Phillies, that projecting it for a playoff berth is hard.”

Is that really true? Do any of you guys have any early projections done? The projections I’ve seen so far have them relatively close to the top of the division, depending on which ones are being used.

He also says the NL West requires a .570 wp (maybe more) to win. Again, that doesn’t seem right. I mean, last year it didn’t even take a .560 wp to win it and those teams have got to be expected to regress a bit, no?

I don’t want to pile on (or nitpick) and I’m sure that I’m as guilty as Sheehan in terms of writing stuff that isn’t solidly based on facts—but at least I try to make it come off that way.


#16    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 01:43

I just read the Sheehan article you linked to and although the basic premise is pretty well thought out, I am not too thrilled with the execution.

The most important part of this kind of analysis is “pitching to he score.” I think he did a wholly inadequate job of analyzing that.

For one thing, he is missing the most important data you need to analyze any given pitcher’s pitching to the score data:  That is, how the average pitcher does at various score differentials.  What if Joe had found that indeed Morris did “pitch to the score” quite significantly?  Well, that wouldn’t tell us ANYTHING (about Morris at least) unless we knew what the average pitcher did in the same or similar situations.

Plus, this:

This isn’t surprising, as to be behind, Morris would have had to have given up at least one run, a pretty good first indicator that he was going to give up more. The sharply rising ERAs as Morris falls behind follow from this; if Morris started an inning down multiple runs, he probably didn’t have it that day.

That is a pretty brazen (presumptious) assumption (which Joe tends to make all the time - conventional wisdoms which either are not true or have not proven yet to be true), namely that pitchers have “off” and “on” days much like hitters are either hot or cold on any given day (alhough the former is intuitively more likely than the latter).

Did we not actually debunk this to some degree in The Book, especially for a veteran pitcher like Morris, at least when he was a veteran pitcher (later in his career)?

No, I was not thrilled with this article at all.  Sorry.  But that’s just my curmudgeonly, arrogant, smug, mean, flip, snark, left-wing self.


#17    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 02:01

DAn/14: there’s two Joe Sheehans.  Would be easier if everyone adopt a unique identifier.  Isn’t that the reason we have names?


#18    studes      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 12:05

#7, No what is ridiculous - perposterous actually - is you saying that you were not “defending the article.”

Okay, so which were you criticizing?  The article or one of the writers’ logic?  Because in a roundtable type of article, there is a difference.

And, if you were attacking the logic and not the article, then there was nothing to defend, right?

Pay up, sucker!


#19    J.R.      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 13:06

MGL,

I replied here in hopes you see this.  I recognize it likely doesn’t really effect the conclusion, given the enourmous disparity between Jones and Bedard, but I was hoping you could provide some insight into how you came to your assessment that Bedard is worth around 4 WAR now (I am not disagreeing, just curious).

Thanks, J.R.


#20    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 18:40

Studes, I will only pay up after a bona fide vote, with no super-delegates allowed!

Anyway, it’s a dead issue I think, but I was critcising two things and two things only:  One, Chris’ statements/logic, and two, the fact that nothing was mentioned/discussed about the value of the respective contracts of Bedard and Jones.  Given that this was a discussion about the merits of the trade (I think), the latter seemed odd and irresponisble.

J.R. my “computations” were off the top of my head.

An average starter is around 1 to 1.25 runs better than a replacement starter.  Let’s say 1.25 to give Bedard the maximum benefit of the doubt.  Plus he is in the AL, which is the better pitching (and hitting) league, by probably .25 runs (per 9).

I have him projected at .8 runs (per 9) better than an average starter (in the AL), which puts him in the category of elite starters, not quite the level of a Peavy, Santana, Halliday, or Webb, but close.

That puts him at a little over 2 runs per 9 better than a replacement starter.  That is pretty much all we need.

At 200 IP, that is 22.2 9 inning games, or 44.4 runs better than replacement.  At 11 runs per win, that is 4.04 WAR of course.

The more rigorous way to do it is to say that a replacement pitcher will give up 5.75 rpg versus 4.5 for an average one.  So, he will give up 4.15 runs for 6.5 innings and an average reliever will give up another 1.25, for a total of 5.4 rpg when a replacement starter starts and pitches for 6.5 IP.  His opponents of course will give up 4.5 rpg.  His wp will be .410.  In 31 starts, his team will win 12.6 games.

Bedard will allow 3.7 rpg, as compared to an average starter (4.5), so in 6.5 ip, it will be 2.67.  Add in an average reliever (at 4.5 rpg) for the other 2.5 ip, and you get another 1.25, for a total of 3.92 rpg.

A team that allows 3.92 and scores 4.50 will win .569 of their games.  For 31 starts, that is 17.5 wins for his team, or 4.9 WAR if I did that right.

So I will update my “back-of-the-envelope” estimate for Bedard to 4.9 WAR for 200 IP in 08.  Keep in mind that you have to reduce that by around .5 wins per year, as pichers lose a lot of expected playing time in each subsequent year because of the chance of injury.  So he is expected to give the M’s 9.3 WAR over the next 2 years until he is a FA.  That is worth around 37 mil on the “open market.”


#21    studes      (see all posts) 2008/02/13 (Wed) @ 19:00

Okay, but I get to count all votes from Michigan and Florida!

So far I’m winning, 1-0.


#22          (see all posts) 2008/02/14 (Thu) @ 18:13

Since when are there two Joe Sheehan’s? There’s also a Jaffe for THT and a Jaffe for BP. Too confusing.


#23    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/02/14 (Thu) @ 19:11

There’s only one Tangotiger, all the more reason not to use any other name.


#24    studes      (see all posts) 2008/02/16 (Sat) @ 12:09

Okay, MGL.  The balloting is closed.  I think it’s pretty clear that I won, based on an overwhelming majority (thanks, dan!) and my impeccable logic.  According to your terms, you have to…

- Stop posting forever, and
- Donate $1000 to my favorite charity

Maybe this wager will make you a little less sure of yourself (and critical of others) in the future?  No?  Oh well.  wink

Tell you what.  Instead of paying $1000 to my favorite charity, how about you agree to write an article for THT (either the site or the book) sometime in the next year?  After all, THT is my favorite “charity” and everyone knows we pay $1000 per article.


#25    joe arthur      (see all posts) 2008/02/16 (Sat) @ 12:27

absentee ballot!

wow this is a tough one. I actually disagreed with MGL that the “analysis” was so bad, but I agree with MGL that Studes’s #2 sounds like a defense of the roundtable/article. The vote is tied 1-1. so at this point both should pay up.


#26    joe arthur      (see all posts) 2008/02/16 (Sat) @ 12:36

I should say that the analysis was clearly labelled as not rigorous and projecting an optimistic upside to the impact of Bedard. So I don’t think it deserved the slam. Not every “analysis” needs to be rigorous


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