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Thursday, March 05, 2009

How far would Juan Pierre have to defer his contract?

By Tangotiger, 04:18 PM

You guys may remember that at the start of last year, before the emergence (or should we say fulfillment) of Ethier and Kemp, we agreed via our fan poll that Pierre had 1500 PA left in his MLB career.  In attempt to disparage him, we may have been pretty optimistic.

Now, with Manny in the mix, there is zero room for Pierre, and he knows it:

Pierre is entering the third year of a five-year, $44 million contract with $28.5 million in salary remaining. Pierre said he would defer payment if that would help facilitate a trade. “I realize the economic situation,” Pierre said of his contract. “I’ll defer if it makes it more attractive.

If Juan Pierre was a free agent, with absolutely no strings attached, what could he be worth?  He’s at best an average-fielding CF, with an arm horribler than his baserunning is good.  And a bat that is very bad.  That works out to a 0.5 WAR player.  He’s basically in a similar class to Garrett Anderson, and plenty of other backup outfielders on their last legs.  Basically, he’d get 2MM, and at that, a one year contract.  Let’s be nice, and say some team would give him 2.85MM.  However, the Dodgers are on the hook for 28.5MM (spread over three years).

If we presume a 5% rate of return, Pierre’s new team could invest $2.45MM in a 50yr bond that will mature at a value of $28.1MM. And if they give him a league minimum salary this year, Pierre will get his $28.5MM.

So, if Pierre is serious about wanting to play this year, and away from the impossible competition he faces with the Dodgers, then he must defer his salary for 50 years, and sign at the league minimum.  The signing team pays him what he is worth (0.4 + 2.45 = 2.85). 

Juan Pierre is as untradeable as Dustin Pedroia, but for the opposite reasons.  Pedroia signed a contract so far below his value, that in order for the Redsox to ever get a fair return for him, they’d have to get back $100MM in cash in return.  Juan Pierre has the opposite problem, that he is signed at so much above his value, that the Dodgers have to write him off at ten cents on the dollar. 

***

By the way, the value of the Redsox increased by 100MM when Pedroia signed that contract, just as the sale price of the Penguins went up, when they won the right to draft Sidney Crosby, and pay him at no more than the rookie cap. That value has to go somewhere… and it’s captured inside the value of the enterprise itself.


#1    James Holzhauer      (see all posts) 2009/03/05 (Thu) @ 21:55

The team value can’t have gone up $100 million from that contract alone, since most of that surplus came from having Pedroia under team control in the first place.  If they had just gone year-to-year with him, he still would have been worth a lot to the franchise value.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/05 (Thu) @ 22:52

Yes, you are right.  It increased by 100M between the time he was drafted to the time he was last signed.


#3    GnarBon14      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 13:18

[Editor’s note: if you want to promote your own site, send me an email, and don’t hijack and act like a spammer.]


#4    ryguy      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 13:27

You have a lot of time on your hands brother


#5    Makai      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:01

LOL. All this hate for a lifetime .300 hitter. Just because the guy isn’t living up to his contract doesn’t mean he’s a bad player. He’s overpaid, and that’s not his fault. 40 stolen bases in 375 ABs sounds pretty good to me. Hitting .283 last year, oh no! .283?!?! What a terrible average! If Colletti didn’t sign him to such a ridiculous contract, no one would be talking about Pierre.

This is the same GM who signed Andrew Jones for 2 years @ Carlos Lee type money. Same GM who let Saito and Lowe leave and still hasn’t signed Beimel. The same GM who signed a 37 year old, slow, unpredictable corner outfielder to a 1 year deal @ $25M, and became Scott Boras whipping boy in the process.

LOL @ you guys thinking Pierre doesn’t have another 4 years left in MLB. Just because he isn’t as good as Kemp/Manny/Ethier, you’re ready to give up on the guy’s career? Just in 2007 the guy hit .293. BTW, what is he making, like 1/3 of Manny’s salary? Stop acting like this guy is getting Barry Zito money.


#6    Victor      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:34

These are the kinds of comments you get when MLB Trade Rumors links to you.


#7    Sam      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:38

Juan Pierre is actually making the same amount of money as Manny in 2009. Each guy makes $10 million. How sad/crazy is that?


#8    Makai      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:52

1. Victor, who are you even talking about?
2. Sam, you’re clueless


#9    Sam      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:57

Makai,

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/los-angeles-dodgers.html

Quote:

Juan Pierre: makes $10M in ‘09, $10M in ‘10, $8.5M in ‘11

Manny Ramirez: makes $10M in ‘09; if he opts out of his contract he recevies $15M in 3 installments of $5M from 2010-2012; if he does not opt out he receives $10M in ‘09 and ‘10 and $25M in three installments of $8.33M from 2011-2013

Unquote.

Who’s clueless again?


#10    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 14:59

I think he’s talking about the cherry picking of data and looking at a quarter of a player’s package, ignoring the other three-quarters, all in an attempt to support an unsupportable position.

But, don’t let me put words in his mouth.

***

Also, I don’t remember the last time someone on this blog quoted this thing you called “batting average”.  Is this one of those new-age stats that all the kids are talking about?


#11    Mikey      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:04

Oh snap!

Makai, you just got F’d in the A.


#12    Dan      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:05

I think you are really overreacting. There are a lot of teams that could use a speedy leadoff hitter who can play centerfield.  This guy could hit .300 again playing everyday and steal 50+ bases.  I understand that his contract definitely overpays him but there is a place in the big leagues for Juan Pierre to be a starting CF…


#13    Mikey      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:09

And what is that place called? If there is position that Pierre should be playing in MLB, it’s Left Out.


#14    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:26

In the Juan Pierre family of players, he stands way behind Endy Chavez and somewhat behind Michael Bourn.

Considering that most MLB teams consider Endy the ideal fourth outfielder, and Astros fans don’t seem to appreciate Bourn, in no way should Juan Pierre be considered a starting anything.

Juan Pierre has probably two years left in MLB.


#15    Makai      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:50

Nice rebuttle there Sam. I was unaware of the deferred money situation.

Tango - you rate Michael Bourne above Pierre? Wow. Got any statistics on why you’d do that? I didn’t know a guy who hits .229 is better than a lifetime .300 hitter. Please enlighten me with your brilliant baseball knowledge. LOL @ Endy Chavez being an ideal anything. Both of the guys you named aren’t as good as Pierre!


#16    southbaydodgerfan      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 15:54

People who are defending Pierre really have not watched him over the past couple years in LA. 

Seriously, he’s simply not that good.  Sure, he works hard, and definitely deserves credit for doing so.  However, if he really works that hard, and yet still produces so very little, I find it hard to have a starting place for him on any team. 

Yeah great, he’s fast and steals bases, but that is the ONLY thing that he is good at.  He has a horrible arm, he can’t hit for any power, and he rarely gets on base for a lead off man.  So, he’s basically a really rich pinch-runner…

I’m not sure which Juan Pierre you have been watching Makai…


#17    AkAttack      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 16:11

Juan Pierre is overpaid.  Everyone agrees with that.

But he isn’t worthless. 

2008 Avg: .288
2007 Avg: .293

Led the MLB in SB for the last three years. 
Can cover decent ground in CF (but his arm is weaker than my little sister’s)

I’m not saying he’s good.  But there is definately a place in the MLB for a speedy .290 lead-off hitter somewhere if the dodger’s eat most of his salary.


#18    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 16:28

Who said “worthless”.  I did say 2.85MM, didn’t I?

Who said not MLB-caliber?  I did say he had two years left in MLB.

Please stop quoting this “batting average”.  Your new-fangled technology scares and frightens me.  I’m just a caveman.


#19    Christian      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 17:16

Very nicely done, and now you’ll make me laugh every time I see Pierre at-bat this year.


#20    Brian Cartwight      (see all posts) 2009/03/06 (Fri) @ 17:41

Juan Pierre, 2008-2011, $28.5m
Manny Ramirez, 2008-2011, $28.3m (if he opts in)

wow...I know Manny gets additional money in later years, but that’s how much the Dodgers will be sening out in paychecks over the next 3 seasons.

And it’s even more reason why Pierre might be jobless, my company just laid off 15% nationwide...people who produced less than what their paycheck was worth. Even if he continues to receive the check. The Dodgers will be getting a 4th OF/PR for 3/28.5. They culd cut him, replace him with another player in the same role, but probably more productive overall, for 3/1.5.

So with Pierre, they pay 3/28.5, replace him and pay 3/30.


#21    Matt Lentzner      (see all posts) 2009/03/07 (Sat) @ 01:32

Manny for 3 years: 28 million dollars
Juan Pierre for 3 years: also 28 million dollars
Seeing people quote batting average on the Inside the Book blog: priceless.

This thread is LOL funny!

Matt

P.S. I fail to see how Pierre is any better than Rajai Davis, a league minimum fifth outfielder who was DFA’ed last year, but is still useful.


#22    Hyltzn      (see all posts) 2009/03/07 (Sat) @ 01:42

Where am I?


#23    Scott      (see all posts) 2009/03/07 (Sat) @ 04:35

Has anybody heard any rumors of a trade of Pierre to the White Sox.  They need a lead-off man and a center fielder.  Last year when the Dodgers signed Andrew Jones, there were rumors about the White Sox being interested and their lead-off and CF holes still exist from a year ago. 

They could trade one bad contract for another: Jose Contreras.  Their salaries match, though Contreras has fewer years left and Contreras probably wont make the Sox rotation.  The Dodgers need pitching, they don’t lose any money on the deal and with Contreras coming off of an injured season he may end up being a steal.  Just a thought.


#24          (see all posts) 2009/03/08 (Sun) @ 16:13

"I think he’s talking about the cherry picking of data”

Kind of like all of this talk omitting the fact that Pierre is just about the best base stealer in baseball?

This was a bad contract, but at least there is still a percentage of value in it.  Unlike AJ, who almost everybody was for signing, whose percentage of value was negative because of all of the at-bats completely wasted.

Your math may be cute, but its silly.  You trade Pierre with the cash to cover what his contract is above its market value period.  You keep him on the bench, and you have the best pinch runner in baseball, period.


#25    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/08 (Sun) @ 16:46

Yes, that’s what I said: he’s got a 28.5MM contract, which is worth 2.85MM this year, and somewhat less next year, and that’s it.

If I say it that way, it’s a pretty boring thread.


#26    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 15:28

Washington Post has a baseball blog (who knew?), and they linked to this thread.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/03/juan_pierre_wants_out_sounds_g.html

Pretty decent blog actually, if you check it out.


#27    Makai      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 13:55

Good post DodgerDude. LOL @ Endy Chavez and Michael Bourne being better than Pierre.


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