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Thursday, December 18, 2008

Hall of Fame, please hold… and hold

By Tangotiger, 09:39 PM

Joe Sheehan, in a well-reasoned piece on changing the waiting period for eligibility:

I’d like to suggest that the 15-year window for eligibility has long outgrown its usefulness. With all of the information available about modern players --information accessible in a heartbeat—you can cut that by two-thirds and still get solid evaluations of players’ careers.

Right, good point.

Imagine that the HOF never existed, and you get to start it, would you do it the way they are doing it now?  I don’t think so.

First off, I would make eligibility start at the person’s 45th birthday.  How does it make sense that Kirby Puckett is eligible for the HOF 8 years before Rickey Henderson, even though Rickey is older?  Rickey’s comparison group is shifted, as the guys he competed against is not representative on the ballot.  When a player turns 45, he’s eligible.  If that means you have a playing legend, like Nolan Ryan, all the better.  Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Guy Lafleur were all retirees who unretired as Hall of Famers.  Sweet.

And when he turns 50, he’s off the ballot.  As Joe said, we’ve got enough information now.  Do we need to prolong the agony for the few, when such a huge number get voted in so early anyway?  Why does Paul Molitor and Robin Yount and Tony Gwynn get something written about them just one year, but Jim Rice and Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris get something every single year for what will be 15 years? 

As Joe noted, with such a small window, no need to knock players off the ballot if they don’t get enough votes.  If you have to, I’d ask the voters to vote “yes, no, ask me next year”.  It’s a darn shame that a borderline candidate like Lou Whitaker is an afterthought after one year, while a borderline candidate like Kirby Puckett is voted in, the same year, on the same first-time ballot.  Out of the 516 ballots cast, 423 said “yes” to Kirby and only 15 said “yes” to Lou.  Isn’t it possible that there were some 408 of them that were thinking “ask me next year”, and were really saying “ask me next year, but I really hope that at least 26 other voters said yes, because that’s the only way I’m going to get asked next year”.

The Hall of Merit forces an “elect x” number of players.  You can make it an elect-2 or elect-3 or whatever.  But, why bother having the chance that no one gets voted in, when really you want to vote players in.  Just because there might be a year in which no one stands out as MVP, are you not going to give out the MVP award that year?  It seems to have worked out well for HoM, and we can learn from their process if there were players that might have skated in because of a weak ballot.  I doubt it, but I’d like to hear from them.

Finally, why not a tiered Hall of Fame?  Every 5 or 10 years, you vote players up a rung.  It would be a fixed number, so you know you’ll have a celebration.  No surprises like no one gets enough votes, or too many do.  Wouldn’t it be nice for Ruth and Mays and Hank to stand at the top of the heap, which they richly deserve, instead of being on par with Kirby and Bruce Sutter?  You can have an elect-4 for the regular Hall of Fame, so that you can have alot of celebration for the players who impacted the game.

At least it’s not in as bad shape as basketball, where more coaches are voted in than players.  It’s true.  I think the ratio should be 10:1 in terms of player to nonplayer ratio.  It’s the players that count.


#1    Jake      (see all posts) 2008/12/18 (Thu) @ 23:33

I don’t think it would be smart for players to be eligible for the hall while they are active.  The five-year grace period gives you a while to think about the player’s career as a whole, rather than his latest season or two.  To use an extreme example, if Jamie Moyer were up for the hall right now (as he would be at age 45 or 46 or whatever he is right now), voters would certainly be friendlier to him right now after being a key part of a championship team than they will be in 7 years or so when they’ll, rightfully, say “yes, he helped a team win a championship, but ultimately his career was just 24 years of mediocrity.”


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/12/18 (Thu) @ 23:41

If you can make a lifetime commitment to your partner after knowing that person for one year, I think it’s easy to figure out after watching Jamie Moyer for 25 years whether you want him in the HOF, without being unduly swayed.


#3    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/12/18 (Thu) @ 23:42

I don’t think the voters would put Jamie in now.  But I’d hate for him to be off the ballot and ineligible when he’s 51 and winning his 300th game.


#4    Patriot      (see all posts) 2008/12/19 (Fri) @ 00:50

I think that if you are going to go to an elect-2 or 3 every year time system, it would be prudent to allow for perpetual (or at least longer) eligibility than just five years.  Over the long haul we can expect the number of worthy players to be uniformly distributed across birth year, but I’m not sure that five years is long enough.

The HOM has perpetual eligibility, and I think it works out okay.  They have chosen some guys decades after their careers ended, but that is more likely in their case as they are a relatively small group and they have a lot of collective historical knowledge.  If Sherry Magee, Bill Dahlen, and Deacon White were on the ballot, there would be very little real chance of the BBWAA putting them in.  But it would leave the door open for correction of a major oversight if you could get a movement going.

Of course, some people might quixotically waste their votes on Dahlen, instead of voting for a Trammell that might actually have a chance.  If that’s a concern, you could have a run-off too: let the voters choose which of the three they want to elect out of the top ten.  This lets you screen the ballot down to a manageable size without the arbitrary 5% cutoff, and do it organically.


#5          (see all posts) 2008/12/19 (Fri) @ 17:01

To reproduce the BBWAA level of inductions in a mandatory election system would require more like an elect-1, and certainly no more than an elect-2, per year system.  Covering essentially the period from around 1900 on, a litte over 100 years of play, the BBWAA over the years has elected just over 100 HOFers.  In the nine years 2000-2008, the BBWAA has elected 15 players, an average of 1.67 per year.  I’m not sure how much deeper one would want to go than that.  Given the pryamidal nature of baseball talent, choosing the top 100 or 150 players of all time is much easier than choosing the top 200 or 300.  To select that second or third set of 100 requires distinguishing among a group that becomes increasingly populated with players of very comparable talent. The BBWAA has actually done a pretty good job of selecting the top 100 or so players of all time—they’ve made a rather small number of egregious errors, really.  I think in large part that’s because talent at that very upper level tends to separate itself out pretty self-evidently.  Veterans Committees, picking in effect from the next level down, have a much harder job, distinguishing among players at a level where talent is bunched more tightly.


#6    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/12/22 (Mon) @ 11:03

Good piece by Dan R:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21score.html


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