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Wednesday, July 28, 2010

Gotta give Joe Torre some credit

By , 12:03 AM

Although it is a no-brainer, as we have pointed out numerous times on this blog, many managers would not have pulled their starter…

Top of the 7th, Billingsley, a very good pitcher overall, is pitching a shutout in a 0-0 game. It is first and third, 2 outs, and Russell Martin, the Dodgers RH number 8 hitter is due to bat against the Padres’ starter, Garland, an average pitcher, who is also pitching a shutout.

Bud Black (whom I do not like in general, as a strategist) IBB’s Martin.  Now, if he assumes that Torre is going to pull his pitcher for a pinch hitter, it is a terrible IBB of course.  Absolutely horrible.  If it is 50-50 or 75-25 that Torre will pinch hit, I don’t know off the top of my head.  If he is thinking, “Well, I force him to take his ‘hot’ starter out of the game,” and he is OK with the pinch hitter, it is still a terrible move.  As we have explained many times, also on this blog, a very good starter the third (or more) time through the order is not so good anymore and any decent reliever is likely better, especially if you can mix and match relievers to try and get the platoon advantage.

Anyway, Torre does elect to pinch hit (100% the right move) with Ethier, a LHB, who was originally scratched from the lineup (stomach issues I think).

Black still has a chance to redeem himself by bringing in Thatcher, a very good LH reliever.  Thatcher is much better than Garland in this situation.  He doesn’t.  Ethier singles, Garland is lifted, and the rest is almost history (2-0 Dodgers in the bottom of the 7th as I write this)…


#1          (see all posts) 2010/07/28 (Wed) @ 04:40

I don’t know, he induced a GB which is an out 75% of the time, but not this time. Didn’t have the BABIP gods on his side. 

In a must win game, not using Thatcher to pitch to Ethier would be a cardinal sin.  But in the regular season, games are not must win games.  Have to consider the big picture.

As for the IBB. Guys who PH are not as effective in general as when they have been playing the entire game and would be facing you for the 3rd time, so not a bad move to IBB Martin IMHO. Even though Ethier is a good hitter, as a PH’er and with a stomach problem, maybe not as good.

Forcing Torres hand and getting Billingsley out early in a close game forced Torre to use Kuo for 2 innings and 34 pitches.  This might help the Padres tommorrow if there is another close game as Kuo won’t be available.

If I am Black, after the game I consider that my team scored 0 runs, so I won’t 2nd guess myself too much.  You are not going to win without scoring a run, the best you can do is force extra innings and deplete your bullpen, and perhaps still lose without scoring a run.


#2    BrianK      (see all posts) 2010/07/28 (Wed) @ 09:28

Bud Black had 4 alternatives:
1. Reliever pitches to Martin
2. Garland pitches to Martin
3. IBB Martin and reliever pitches to best bat on Dodgers bench.
4. IBB Martin and Garland pitches to best bat on Dodgers bench.

He chose the worst of the options. Give credit to Torre for doing the obvious here, but Black was in control of the situation.


#3    Drakos      (see all posts) 2010/07/28 (Wed) @ 10:38

For what its worth in the game recap Garland is quoted as saying that it was his decision to intentionally walk Martin.


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2010/07/28 (Wed) @ 10:56

Ah-hahahahaha.  Never ever would I believe that a pitcher would call for an IBB.  I can believe the pitcher would pitch a batter a foot away, hoping for a wild swing.  But, for a pitcher to say he is the one to call for the IBB without manager consent?  That’s ridiculous.


#5    MGL      (see all posts) 2010/07/28 (Wed) @ 18:00

Right.  A pitcher cannot IBB a batter on his own. Never.  Ever.

Now, a manager might ask a pitcher his opinion or even what he wants to do. But it is always the manager’s decision.  Always.

“He chose the worst of the options.”

Right.  Exactly.  The correct move by far is to have a reliever pitch to Martin.  If he wants to leave Garland in there to pitch to Martin, I have no problem with that either.

Now, bringing Thatcher in to pitch to Ethier might force Torre to replace Ethier with a RHB.  I am not sure who they had on the bench.  But, according to my numbers, Thatcher is very good against RHB also.


#6          (see all posts) 2010/07/29 (Thu) @ 11:37

In the 1970 world championship of Chess, Boris Spassky prepared exhaustively for his match against Bobby Fischer. Spassky had hundreds of games that Fischer had played to study, but he noticed something odd: they all started with the same move, king’s pawn two squares forward. Spassky turned to his managing team and asked, “what if he plays queen’s pawn or a knight move?”

“Nonsense,” his manager said. Fischer would never play such a move.

The problem wasn’t necessarily that Black IBB’d Martin, it’s a twofold error that he A) assumed that Torre would not surprise him, and B) telegraphed his intention to pitch to the ninth spot. When Torre saw the IBB on, how hard was it for him to turn to Ethier and say “Hey, got a pinch hit at-bat in you?”

I think A, ruling out surprises, was the more grievous mistake. Billingsley was only on 80 pitches and was doing just as well as Garland was. Add the fact that Ethier, the Dodger’s best bench player, is a bench player due to sickness earlier in the day. No sane baseball manager would fake an illness for his best hitter to send him up to pinch hit. So, Ethier really must be sick, or at the very least, not 100%.

But there’s the problem. By that logic, Bud Black ruled out that Torre would go to Ethier for Billingsley in the 9 spot, when it was certainly possible that he might. Telegraphing it with an IBB made it worse (why not instruct Garland to just not give him anything to hit in a straight AB?). Effectively, Bud Black asked himself if he’d pinch hit for Billingsley there, decided that he wouldn’t, and assumed that Torre wouldn’t as well.

It seems like a good way to do it, but the logic is backward. A manager, or and game player, must consider his opponent’s mindset, not his own, to rule out a possibility.

And, in case you’re wondering, Fischer often played queen’s pawn in the 23-game championship match. Needless to say, Spassky lost.


#7    MGL      (see all posts) 2010/07/29 (Thu) @ 19:25

Interesting about the chess match.  As I mentioned, Black’s decision is not to be evaluated based on what Torre did, the same way we don’t evaluate most decisions in baseball based on results.

The question for Black is, “What are the chances that Torre pinch hits for Billingsley and with whom?”

Again, I don’t know what the break even number would be.  Someone else can estimate it if they like…


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