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Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Fundamental Pitch Count

By Tangotiger, 10:27 AM

How to refine pitch counts?  This is what I think:


and the following comment was put in Mike Pagliarulo‘s blog:

I am a huge Bill James proponent, but I definitely appreciate what I think is the basic motivation behind FPC (or Fundamental Pitch Count, if acronyms are a no-no).

The way I approach the pitch counts is to tag each pitch on a scale from 0 to 2, in terms of “stress”.  Seeing that I am not a scout, I would give out a flat 0.4 for a knuckler, 0.8 for a fastball, 1.6 for a curveball, etc.  Perhaps for a Randy Johnson, a fastball would only be 0.7, and for Wakefield (when he throws one) would be a 0.9.  The basic idea here is that there’s as much stress in throwing 120 fastballs as there is in throwing 60 curve balls.  Whether I’m right in the actual numbers, I have little idea.  But, that’s the basic framework.

What it sounds like what pags and MOB are doing is something more refined, and looking at each pitch one at a time, looking at their mechanics for each pitch.  If this is their approach, then I applaud them, and would appreciate seeing something written about it, prior to it being defended (or ripped upon).

If it’s not their approach, then a bit more info would be appreciated.

#1          (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 11:43

I think there’s a ton of thought that would need to go into those stress assignments.  For example… I think you’re selling Wakefield short with the knuckleball rating.  I cannot throw a baseball more than 55mph, and I’m a reasonably-sized adult who lifts weights (though I always did have a girly arm in little league).  He throws the knuckler ideally around 69mph.  It looks effortless, but I think it takes a tremendous effort.

I’d think a changeup should have the same stress rating as a fastball, right?

With the mlb.com pitch fx data, you have a tremendous resource for this.  I’m less interested in the type of pitch as I am the standard deviation of it’s velocity.  Schilling’s been around 89-91mph with his fastball, but threw one in there at 95mph the other day, in the 7th or 8th inning.  I’d think that’s got to be the most stressful pitch he threw all day.  I’d suggest using standard deviations of velocity, with some kind of multiplier (or degree-of-difficulty) for pitch type and inning.  But that’s just my gut guess at what I’d do.

The other thing, which none of us can measure, is the sort of inherent stress.  1999 Pedro, at 5’10”, 155lbs, throwing 97mph, has got to be almost infinitely more stressful than Randy Johnson throwing that hard.  Likewise, Fenway in October has got to be tougher on arms than Texas in July.  Fascinating stuff.


#2    Rally      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 12:57

Mike, I hear you.  The velocities of even position players who take the mound in blowouts are something else.  I’m about the same height and build as Mike MacDougal, he can throw 100 and my best fastball might barely beat Wakefield’s knucker.

In my experience weights didn’t help one bit, and neither does size.  I can probably bench twice as much as I did at age 16, and back then I only weighed 130 pounds, but my fastball was probably 5-10 MPH faster than it is now.


#3    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 13:36

I would guess that a 95mph pitch thrown with no movement would be less stressful than a 91mph fastball thrown with some movement.  And, you’d also want to know how stressed his arm is.  So, in your case, Schilling’s 95mph in the 8th may be more stressful than a similar speed/movement pitch in the 2nd.

Re: fastballs from different pitchers, I said that when I said an RJ fastball might be 0.7 as opposed to 0.8.

In any case, I think the answer to stress is already in the hands of Fleisig, et al.

I agree fascinating.

I don’t believe in PAP, simply because the evidence presented was confined to the last few years.  The one era where pitchers would likely be designated by PAP as being overly stressed, the 1970s, was completely ignored.  (See my earlier comments on another blog entry to that effect.)


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 14:18

Pags is skimpy on the details, but this is the latest they’ve said:

http://www.baselinereport.com/baselineblog/?p=288


#5    MGL      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 16:24

If I go to a website and don’t know what the hell is going on, I don’t usually return.  That is the case with this one, although I will probably return.  It is an awful web site.  Not to mention the fact that the name of the web site or company, or whatever it is (baseline?), is ridiculous.

In any case, without research, I think it is complete and utter folly to try and guess which pitches and by whom are more stressful than others.


#6    MGL      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 16:31

So where on this freakin’ god-awful web site is an explanation of FPC?


#7    MB      (see all posts) 2007/09/18 (Tue) @ 17:32

MGL, as far as I know, they really haven’t given an explanation of anything over there. I asked a couple of times and got a “were working on it, be patient” type response. I guess that’s fine, but I don’t know why they put the stuff in their blog posts if they aren’t going to explain it at all.


#8    MGL      (see all posts) 2007/09/19 (Wed) @ 16:16

OK, after poking around a little on the web site, I can sort of see what’s going on.  Good luck to them, I guess.


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