THE BOOK cover
The Unwritten Book is Finally Written!
An in-depth analysis of: The sacrifice bunt, batter/pitcher matchups, the intentional base on balls, optimizing a batting lineup, hot and cold streaks, clutch performance, platooning strategies, and much more.
Read Excerpts & Customer Reviews
If you are a media member and would like a review copy of The Book, please contact Kevin Cuddihy of Potomac Books.

Buy The Book from Amazon

MOST RECENT ARTICLES
MAIL : You ask | We say

Advanced


THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

<< Back to main

Saturday, September 27, 2008

Every once in a while a player is so overrated…

By , 12:53 PM

that a smart team could really get some value for them in a trade.  Sometimes it is because that player has been a one-year wonder.  Sometimes it is that the player used to be good but is no longer and the teams/scouts/fans/etc. are lagging behind.  Sometimes it is that a player has good or great “garbage” stats but poor “predictive” stats.  Sometimes it is that a player is still considered to be a good or great prospect or have great potential, but that potential is in reality a thing of the past (or was, in fact, never there in the first place).


Between last year and this, a couple of examples from the Indians come to mind.  Despite having some gaudy save totals, Borowski was one of the worst closers in baseball.  Surely the Indians could have suckered a team into thinking that he had some value because of those save numbers.  Instead, he got hurt and then released and Cleveland got nothing for him, of course.  Paul Byrd had a nice w/l record last year and a decent ERA.  Lots of teams would have loved to have his veteran presence in their rotation.  As you know (from the Byrd thread on this site), I don’t think much of Paul Byrd.  I think that he is near replacement level.  A 37 year old pitcher who has not had a sub 4.50 ERA since 2005 and does not strike anyone out yet gives up quite a few HR I want no part of.  They finally traded him after he was having an awful season (in all fairness, supposedly, at least according to him, he was tipping his pitches).

Anyway, this year there is a starting pitcher on a team in the post-season. In fact, the team is supposed to be pretty smart.  Working for them is a former writer and analyst for BP.  The pitcher is still pretty young and was once considered a good or even great prospect.  Like most good prospects, he throws hard.  This year, he has a decent ERA and a decent record.  Most of the talking heads are lauding his season and saying that he has finally “turned the corner.”

The reality is that he stinks.  Always has and still does.  Despite throwing hard, his fastball is straight and eminently hittable.  He does not know how to “pitch” very well.  He walks too many people.  Does not strike out enough, especially given his supposed “stuff.” And he gives up more than his fair share of HR’s.  Again, bottom line is that he stinks.  Near replacement level.  Could he become a good pitcher?  Of course he “could.” That is true of almost any young pitcher.  Could he become a very good or great one?  In my opinion, no.  His stuff and pitching style just don’t warrant it.

Could this team get some really good value for this player, even though he is not earning much money right now?  You bet!  Will they?  I doubt it.  If you are a fan of this team, you better hope that he is not in their post-season starting rotation.

#1    Ben      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 13:35

Gotta be Edwin Jackson of Tampa Bay. 
181 1/3 IP, 107/76 K/BB, 22 HR, 195 H, 13-11 W-L, 4.37 ERA

4.42 RA, 4.90 FIP, 5.14 xFIP (from THT)- more in
line with his 5.21 Marcels projected ERA.

A beneficiary of TB’s improved defense (DER of .699 with Jackson on the mound).

And if I’m not mistaken, TWO former BP-ers in the office (Bloom and Click).


#2          (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 13:36

Edwin Jackson?  Or Daisuke Matsuzaka?


#3    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 14:21

Jurgen, Dice-K and Jackson are not even in the same Universe let alone planet…


#4          (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 14:35

Err, it was meant to be a bit of a joke.

(I mean, Matsuzaka’s a good pitcher, but he’s not 18-2 with a 2.80 ERA good.)


#5    studes      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 14:36

Jamie Moyer!


#6    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 14:38

Okay, let’s work this out. Let’s assume that MGL isn’t presuming he knows who wins the NL East/Wild Card or the AL Central. That leaves teams that have clinched:

Cubs
Dodgers
Red Sox
Tampa Bay
Angels

Pretty sure the Cubs don’t employ any former BP writers, and I’d like to think I would know that sort of thing. Also don’t think the Dodgers are known for their stats accumen. If Tampa is known to have former BPers in their FO, it would stand to reason that it’s them.

...and damned if I can figure it out. Why do I always feel like it’s a pop quiz when MGL writes posts like this, and I’m about to be failed out of Sabermetrics 112?


#7    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 14:40

Or maybe MGL just isn’t optimistic about the Mets’ chances and is talking about Seth McClung.


#8    David Cameron      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 15:06

It’s definitely Jackson.  MGL has railed on him before, and he fits every last detail of the criteria.


#9    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 15:17

I agree now - I just realized I was misreading comment #3.


#10    David Cameron      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 16:35

Oh, and I would bet the Rays flip Jackson this winter.  With Kazmir/Shields/Garza as their version of The Big Three, they’ll have to jettison one of Sonnanstine or Jackson to make room for David Price.  Considering Jackson has both the lower ERA and the better velocity readings, as well as the top prospect pedigree MGL refers to, it’s pretty likely that they’ll be able to get more for Jackson than Sonnanstine in trade. 

I’m not sure why MGL’s working assumption is that the Rays will keep Jackson for next year.  Even if you don’t view it through the lens of realizing that he’s not this good, you’d still conclude that he’s likely trade bait just based on Price’s presence.


#11    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 17:57

You are right, D, about having one too many starters. I didn’t think about that. Given that they trade one of their starters, if it ain’t Jackson, I will lose what little faith I have left in humanity.  Typically (and generally - not in all cases) of course you want to trade someone who is making too much money, but in this case even though Jackson is still under control (I think), the difference between his true value (what I think it is, that is) and his perceived value is so large…


#12    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 18:07

Through 2008, Jackson has 3+ years of service.


#13    Rally      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 18:24

They’ll probably trade Jackson, but you never know.

Maybe somebody values one of their other pitchers much more than Jackson, or maybe somebody gets hurt and they decide they need to hold onto their depth.


#14    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/09/27 (Sat) @ 19:57

Maybe somebody values one of their other pitchers much more than Jackson, or maybe somebody gets hurt and they decide they need to hold onto their depth.

I would agree with that.  Plus, I think that no matter how smart you are, when you are in the woods, you always have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.  As well, there will always be people in an organization (Boston, CLE, TB, etc.) that will advocate for a player who has good garbage stats, good “stuff” (although I would argue that he does not have good stuff, despite throwing hard) or was once a prospect.  Try convincing the scouts (and some of the other FO people) for TB that Edwin Jackson is terrible with little chance of ever being much better.  In fact, I doubt there is anyone in the organization who thinks that he is as bad as I think he is.  Even guys like Click and Bloom have probably been brainwashed....


#15    Sky      (see all posts) 2008/09/30 (Tue) @ 16:20

It appears the Rays have left Jackson off their post-season roster in favor of Sonnanstine and Price.  That’s a good first sign about moving him this off-season.  From Rotoworld:

The Rays will go with a rotation of James Shields, Scott Kazmir, Matt Garza and Andy Sonnanstine in the ALDS.

Sounds about right. Edwin Jackson said he was told he would not be on the roster, which suggests that David Price will have a spot in the pen.

Source: St. Petersburg Times


Page 1 of 1 pages


Name (required)
E-Mail (optional)
Website (optional)

<< Back to main


Latest...

COMMENTS

Nov 20 01:43
Sabermetric Moves of the 2009 Pre-Season

Nov 20 04:02
Nate Silver: hero to interviewers

Nov 20 02:01
My 1B is better than your 1B

Nov 20 00:26
MLB logo

Nov 19 23:03
NBA’s Marcel

Nov 19 19:13
Offense by position groups by decade

Nov 19 17:32
Changes in home run rates during the Retrosheet years

Nov 19 16:40
One Year and One Million Hits Later

Nov 19 16:22
Soria as a starter?

Nov 19 13:50
Response of a fired head coach