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Monday, March 09, 2009

Eric Walker and his high (boskage) horse…

By , 04:40 PM

...and the danger of being “absolutely certain” of something that is by no means definitive (in my opinion - not Eric’s - of course).

Let me start by saying that I have no idea whether Eric’s thesis in his Steroids Article is correct or not.  It is just that after reading it, I am thoroughly unconvinced of his conclusions and unimpressed by his logic and arguments.

Eric has a very good reputation and pedigree as far as I am aware (I have never has any contact with him), however, it seems to me that the very things he rails against in terms of other people’s distortion of facts and sloppy analysis, he does himself.

Two things jumped out at me right away:

To search for possible effects from PED use, we first need to understand what PEDs might or might not do for players. No one has ever claimed that any PED improves visual acuity or reflex response speed; all that PEDs can possibly do is increase muscularity. In baseball terms, that means power--the distance balls are hit. If PEDs have a discernible effect in baseball, then that effect must be on power, and only on power.

He is so adamant about this assertion, yet it seems preposterous to me.  Is it unreasonable to think that PED use might affect something other than pure “power?” Is it not possible that it decreases healing time from injury or allows players to play while injured, thus affecting other stats other than just power?  Maybe it only affects counting stats and not rate stats?  Is it not possible that they (PED’s) have a general effect, psychological (placebo effect) or otherwise, on feelings of health and well-being (remember that Canseco said in his first book that they make you feel “invincible” and “like Superman"), such that all or some aspects other than, or in addition to, power are affected?  Shouldn’t an increase in strength allow you to hit ground balls harder such that you get more singles (remember he said “power ONLY")?  Granted, it is likely that if PED’s have any effect at all, it would show up in the power numbers, but, to me, to emphatically state that its effect MUST BE on “power and power ONLY,” is preposterous.

Here is the worst part of his argument and where I stopped reading the article in order to write this (maybe I’ll finish the article):

(You have to look at the graph in the article yourself.) In summary, he shows an historical graph of “power factor” (total bases per hit, I think) from the early 1900’s to the 2000’s.  Putting aside the fact that, again, I think it is possible that PED’s could have an effect on performance and not necessarily show up in this statistic (granted it likely would)…

(He also “splices” the graph in order to delete the year or years that he thinks the ball was juiced.  I am not crazy about this technique and I do not agree that it is absolutely certain that the ball was juiced in those years or eras, but I’ll even grant him this as well.)

The graph shows a marked and continuous decline from the early 60’s to around 1980.  From 1980 to the present time, the curve is relatively flat (although it does make an upward turn in the mid 1990’s which may be significant with respect to PED’s).  About these two “trend lines” Eric says this:

The rate of decline from 1962 on through 1981 was dramatic; we don’t need here to speculate on causes, because that’s not relevant to our investigation. From 1982 on through the present, power has been nearly flat (it looks like a slight downtrend only because the bizarre 1986/1987 spike “front-loads” the average, but I didn’t want to arbitrarily smooth out those years).

First of all, I think that it IS important to speculate on or understand the reason for the decline from the 1960’s to 1980.  The reason that is important is that we want to know what caused this decline to abruptly halt in 1980 or so, or even start to drift upward in the mid 1990’s! Could it have been steroids?

Eric goes on to say:

It thus becomes quite impossible to believe in any theory that speaks of “boosting” power in modern times, simply because there has been no such boost. Below is a blow-up graph of the so-called “steroid era”, starting at 1982 (because 1981 was strike-shortened and thus not a good data point).

I am absolutely blown away by such poor, one-sided, logic and analysis.  Now, I am not saying that PED’s have any effect at all, and if they do, what kind of effect and what we are likely to see in a graph like this.  I really have no idea.  But Eric shows us steadily declining PF (power factor) rates from 1961 (or so) to 1980 and an abrupt leveling off of that “trend” and then claims that “there is no evidence of a PED effect?”

WTF!  Isn’t it just as plausible that PED use had a profound effect on PF causing that declining trend to abruptly cease?  Also, as I said, if you look at the graph, you can clearly see a slight rise from the mid 1990’s to the present time.  Isn’t that some (small) evidence of a PED effect as we might hypothesize that at some point in the 1990’s, PED use increased fairly dramatically?  Wouldn’t we REALLY want to know what caused the marked decline from the 60’s to the 80’s and whether that decline would have continued if not for PED use in the 80’s and beyond (remember that Eric said, “...we don’t need here to speculate on causes, because that’s not relevant to our investigation.")?  Isn’t that critical to determining whether the flat curve from the 80’s to the present time is evidence for or against PED use?

Eric, again, on the “flat” curve from the 1980’s to the present:

Remember, nothing is alleged to--or can have--happened to all of MLB over some one or two seasons: the claim is that PEDs were being used at a slowly but steadily increasing rate (and thus “distorting records") from very roughly 1980 through the present. Were that so, or anything like it, we would expect to see a clear long-term uptrend during this period. But we don’t: we see a nearly flat line that, if anything, slopes slightly down. The “boost” just isn’t there. But that doesn’t seem to stop anyone from talking about it.

Again, that bolded part would only be true if there were not some other factor or factors that would cause a declining trend.  From 1960 to 1980, there is enormous evidence that there WAS some other factor or factors that caused PF to decline at a steady rate.  If those factor(s) were still prevalent from 1980 onward (and we would need to speculate on or investigate what those factors might have been), then we see strong evidence for some other factor that came along in 1980 or so to counteract or neutralize the factor(s) that contributed to the declining trend, and that “some other factor” could be PED use.

Am I missing something or have I lost my mind?


Aaron_Splits_chart.xls

#1    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 18:19

I like this part:

Adair says “...(power)is generated largely by (lower body)...” and Walker paraphrases Adair as having said that “...(power) is all about (lower body)...”.  Later, you get “biceps, triceps and deltoids… mean essentially nothing to long ball hitting”, and shortly thereafter, we are told those muscles have nothing to do with batting.  Not just power, but batting.

If every step of your piece-by-piece wall of evidence is allowed to be exaggerated slightly (or not so slightly), the only thing between you and your predetermined outcome is the necessary number of logical steps.


#2    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 18:49

Good point! You hear that all the time about almost every sport, for example, golf - that the lower body generates all the power, etc.  That is ridiculous.  While I am sure that lower body technique contributes to power in baseball and golf (how much, I have no idea), I am equally sure that the upper body also contributes to power.


#3    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 19:18

Again, this is a sabermetrician who prides himself on his meticulous, well-reasoned arguments, I think.

I am reading the rest of the article:

There are well-established formulas, grounded in basic physics, for calculating the speed with which a batted ball leaves the bat on its journey fenceward, which (excepting minor wind effects) is all that matters to distance for any given upward angle.

I am not a physicist, but I am an avid golfer, and doesn’t the spin on the ball (which depends on where on the bat you make contact and the angle/plane of the swing) also substantially affect the distance given a certain ball speed?

.... but the one we are interested in is the speed of the bat at the moment of impact: that is the sole ball-distance factor having to do with the batter’s strength.

Isn’t it plausible that if I am weaker that I have to swing earlier and try and pull everything whereas if I am stronger, I can hit lots of balls to the opposite field? Or I may swing harder if I am weaker?  Or I have to use a lighter bat? IOW, if I am weaker, I may still generate a bat speed equal to or greater than a person who is stronger, but I will not fare as well because I have to try and pull everything, or I have to swing earlier or harder, or I have to use a lighter bat?

Walker is making statements and assumptions which are misleading at best and simply not true at worst.

The rest of the section on “performance” is not any better, I don’t think.  Basically he concludes that if a player adds 20 pounds of overall muscle from steroids, then 5 pounds of that would be lower body (just a WAG by him - which is OK) and Adair says that upper body strength is almost meaningless in terms of power (a claim I find ridiculous - just look at the arms of players like Garvey and McGwire), and 5 pounds of muscle would add around 2.5 feet to a fly ball (I don’t know if that is true or not), and that an extra 2.5 feet would add around 1 HR per year (again, I have no idea if that is true - Greg?).  Of course, he does not mention the possibility that that 5 pounds and 2.5 feet might also equate to more doubles, singles, triples, etc., just by virtue of hitting every ball harder…


#4    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 19:39

And then later, he refers to a bunch of studies, each of which says “steroids improve upper body strength more than lower body stength”, or words to that effect.  But when those studies move from the medical effects page of his site to the page you’re quoting above, all of the sudden it reads as “...a markedly greater effect on upper body strength than lower body strength”.

Then one more from the previous “brick” in the wall: “Batting is almost exclusively powered by lower-body strength”.

Seriously, it’s like every assertion in this entire piece is exaggerated.  I feel stupid for having taken the time to confirm that this is all a bunch of distorted nonsense… I won’t waste the time necessary to find the other primary sources that contradict this predetermined outcome.  I just wonder what’s his motivation - is there some sort of lecture circuit for PED junk science or something?


#5    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 19:53

I don’t know where the incremental distance numbers came from, I think he said something about skipping the math for that part (maybe he meant “omitting” the math, but my money’s on the math actually having been skipped!)

I found another good one farther down:

“Numerous scientific studies, looking at data from thousands or tens of thousands of adolescents, show three chief reasons for PED use, none of which are in any way related to imitating professional athletes. Those reasons are (skipping to the good part) ...to excel at some organized school sport, mainly football but also weight-lifting and wrestling...”

So, trying to excel at an organized sport such as football is not related to imitating a professional athlete?  WTF?  Did he read this before posting it?


#6    dan      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 20:08

I also have an issue with this quote:

.... but the one we are interested in is the speed of the bat at the moment of impact: that is the sole ball-distance factor having to do with the batter’s strength.

That’s simply not true at all. If I swing a 45 oz. bat at 75 mph and a 10 oz. toy bat at the same speed, which one will hit the ball farther? He’s a physicist (I think it said he was in Moneyball) but completely ignores momentum, for which the equation is p=mv, where p is momentum, v is velocity, and m is mass. All baseballs have the same mass (more or less), so the only determining factor for momentum is velocity. The same is not true for hitters; it is a combination of mass and velocity, which he simply ignores.

I haven’t read the actual article yet, only the post and the comments. I think I’ll read it now if it’s not too long.


#7    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 22:04

It’s too long, Dan.  Way too long.


#8    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 22:11

Oh yeah, I forgot about the mass thing.  You are right.  Plus I think I read somewhere that the mass of the bat includes to some extent the mass (weight) of the person holding the bat, which makes sense. If a 6 year old kid were able to swing a bat 75 mph and and a 200 pound man were to swing the same bat 200 mph, I think the man will hit it farther.  The boy would be essentially “knocked over” by the force of the incoming baseball.  As well, there is no clear-cut distinction between the bat and the arm/body. IOW, sheer weight (mass) of the player increases distance, I think, all else being equal.  That might especially be true of the arms since the arms are an extension of the bat. 

So there are clearly several things that determine the distance a ball goes, other than angle of trajectory and speed off the bat (and atmospheric conditions of course).

As far as disputing the notion that kids are influenced to take PED’s by athletes taking PED’s, I think it is obvious that there is a connection.  The extent of the connection?  Who the heck knows?

Again, I don’t know much about Eric Walker, but he seems to pride himself on being level-headed, scientific, etc.  His old article (I don’t know that it is written by him, but it has been on the High Boskage web site for years) about the “juiced ball” ("Silly Ball") has the same tone - “Here is a really complex situation with no clear-cut answers, but if you read my air-tight arguments, you have to come to the conclusion that I am 100% correct in my conclusions...”

That is not science.  I forgot who said it, but someone really smart said that science is comprised of theories that have yet to be disproved.  Or something like that.  You get the idea.


#9    Alan Nathan      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 22:31

I had several e-mail exchanges with Walker last year and I am not persuaded of his scientific objectivity.  One issue on which we had some heated exchanges had to do with the “juiced ball.” In 2000, MLB commissioned Prof. Jim Sherwood at UMass/Lowell to do a study of the coefficient of restitution of the baseball compared to the previous year.  The study was in response to the marked increase in HR production during the first two months of the season.  The study showed no statistically significant difference between 2000 and 1999 baseballs.  Now, one can legitimately criticize the methodology of that study (and at the time, I did). But my criticism was scientifically based.  Walker’s criticism is based entirely on the fact that MLB funded the study.  He was attacking the integrity of the people doing the study, not the study itself.  As a physicist myself, I can assure you that real scientists do not work that way.  Once I figured out that about Walker, I ignored everything else he wrote.

I do recommend that you read the article by Roger Tobin, which you can find at this link:
http://webusers.npl.illinois.edu/~a-nathan/pob/Tobin_AJP_Jan08.pdf.  I have written an article for SABR’s Baseball Research Journal evaluating Tobin’s paper and ultimately agreeing with his conclusions (given his initial assumptions).  The article is currently under review, but as soon as it is accepted I will post it on my web site.

One quick point:  when considering the momentum of the bat, the only mass that matters is the mass in the vicinity of the barrel.  Certainly the batter’s weight, his hands, his grip do not matter.  Nor does the weight of the bat in the handle.  The essential physics is that the ball-bat collision is extremely fast, so fast that the “information” that the ball hits the bat doesn’t even reach the hands until the ball has already left the bat.  It is really true that the batter should just as well let go of the bat just before it meets the ball and it won’t make a bit of difference to the fate of the ball.  I wrote a paper about that back in 2000 (Dynamics of the ball-bat collision, available on my web site).


#10    dan      (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 22:41

Greg--

I actually read some of this a while back, but that was way before I was thinking critically about these kinds of things. I recognized it when the page opened and saw how ridiculously long it is.


#11          (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 23:14

I haven’t read the entire article yet, but I just wanted to make one point on the first quote in the original post; There is a very good counter-argument to the notion that the effect of PEDs would show up in power numbers only.  Even if you assume it is true that PEDs ONLY have the effect of increased musculature, that extra muscle will affect far more than just power.  It *could* affect things like contact percentage as well.  And the reason is that any increase in strength represents a decrease in the fraction of available strength needed to make the very small, but very important, corrective actions needed during a swing (or while delivering a pitch) that allow the ballplayer to make the bat (or ball) do what he wants to do.  Which means that an increase in strength could easily translate into an increase in an athletes ability to control the bat or ball...which is a very important skill.

I don’t know that this is absolutely true, but I do know that it is plausible enough that it seems absurd to throw it out at the beginning.


#12          (see all posts) 2009/03/09 (Mon) @ 23:53

Also, with regard to the bit about upper body strength not being important.  It’s very important, but not necessarily for the generation of power.  It’s important for the transmission of power.  The muscles in the upper body act as a sort of clutch.  If the entire upper body stays limp through a swing, the hips will move, and the torso will move a bit, but not much else.  The upper body muscles have to flex in order to transmit that power from the hips, through the torso, the shoulders, the arms and hands out into the bat.  The stronger the upper body is, the more efficient that transmission of power becomes.  There may be some threshold of strength needed to get to 100% (or as near it as we can get) transmission, but even then, extra upper body strength doesn’t then get wasted...it becomes available for increased control (see my previous comment)


#13    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 00:00

Alan, thank you for clearing up my misconception about the role of a player’s mass in imparting force on the ball.  I was apparently mistaken.  So I guess the little boy who could swing a bat as fast (and as squarely) as a major leaguer would hit the ball just as far?  How much role does the spin imparted on the ball play in the distance it goes, given a certain initial ball speed and trajectory?  And how much different spin can a typical player impart on a ball depending upon where on the bat the ball is contacted and the plane of the swing? 

Ike, I agree.  There are many plausible reasons why and how use of PED’s as a performance enhancer might not ONLY affect power numbers.

To categorically state that because a substance may increase muscle mass and strength (which is not necessarily true in and of itself), it therefore can have no effect on anything but pure power numbers, is absurd.


#14    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 00:14

It saddens me to say this, but in all likelihood Walker is a crank. I don’t mean this as perjoritively as one might think; I tend to agree with some (although certainly not all) of his conclusions. I do substantially agree with the premise that the ball underwent radical change in the early 90s. I think that if Walker was a bit less of a crank he could be a much more effective advocate for the points he makes, some of which are important and necessary to the debate.

I’ve started trying to read the paper you’ve suggested, Alan. As with many academic papers, it’s likely to be a long slough for me, but from a preliminary glance, the suggestion that steroid usage can create such a large increase in home run rates runs into a particular issue - we don’t just see that increase for a small set of hitters, we see it for basically every hitter. Here, for instance, are home runs per contacted ball rates for pitchers hitting:

“yearID” “HR_RATE”
“1990” “0.0062”
“1991” “0.0044”
“1992” “0.0041”
“1993” “0.0049”
“1994” “0.0032”
“1995” “0.0074”
“1996” “0.0081”
“1997” “0.0061”
“1998” “0.0060”
“1999” “0.0083”
“2000” “0.0095”

Based upon the Tobin results, it seems like a shocking number of players would have all had to begin taking steroids at roughly the same time to achieve the results we see at a league level.


#15          (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 00:25

MGL:  Yes, a little boy swinging the same bat at the same speed as a major leaguer would hit the ball just as far.  Bat speed is a major factor in how hard the ball is hit--it is probably the most important factor, assuming the ball is hit squarely.  The distance the ball travels depends on three factors:  hit ball speed, launch angle, and spin.  Another paper I wrote and posted on my web site is entitled “The effect of spin on the flight of a baseball.” And I am currently working on a paper having to do with the aspects of the ball-bat collision that cause the ball to spin.  That should be ready for prime time in the next few months (I work slowly, mainly because I am trying to do too many things at the same time).  By undercutting the ball, as opposed to hitting is squarely, the friction between the ball and surface of the bat causes the ball to spin, so that it comes off the bat with backspin.

By the way, the Tobin article focuses entirely on home run production.  That should not be misinterpreted as arguing that this is the only effect of steroids.  It is just the aspect that Tobin chose to focus on.  Just to save all of you from having to read the paper, the argument goes like this:  (1) increased muscle mass results in higher bat speed and therefore a higher batted ball speed; (2) higher batted ball speed leads to longer fly balls and therefore more home runs.  Quantitatively, the rather surprising result is that a small increase in bat speed can lead to a very large increase in home run production.


#16    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 01:49

The (fatal) problem with looking at league-wide changes in performance is that we have no idea as to the cause of changes in performance - strike zone, weather, the baseball, the bats, etc.  And since we have no idea exactly when widespread steroid use begun and the prevalence, that makes it even tougher.

As far as I am concerned the only way to study the effect of steroid use on performance is to look at players who we know took them or likely took them (with the likeliness not having anything to do with their stats).

For example, Colin’s chart above (Colin, are you sure you have the years lined up correctly with the numbers?  I am pretty sure that pitcher hitting increased dramatically in 94 and not 95 - certainly overall - including position players - HR rate saw a dramatic rise in in 94, not in 95, right?) suggests a change in the baseball or something like that, and not steroids.


#17          (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 02:02

I tend to agree with you MGL that you would first have to do case studies of people known to have taken PEDs at some point in their career and compare them with what they did prior to taking PEDs.  When just looking at something like offensive output, there are way too many other variables that can come in to play.  Juiced ball, changes in accepted baseball strategy, changes in the way teams select players.  All of these and many more.  have to be controlled for in any study of the effect of PEDs on in-game output.  For instance, the rise in pitchers hitting home runs could also be due to a change in the types of pitchers teams bring to the big leagues.  More big strong power pitchers and fewer smallish would naturally lead to higher pitcher home run rates.


#18    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 02:15

Colin, I ran the same query using AB-SO as balls in play.  Your numbers look fine.  Here is what I got:

1990 .0056
1991 .0046
1992 .0047
1993 .0057
1994 .0032
1995 .0082
1996 .0073
1997 .0061
1998 .0059
1999 .0084
2000 .0092
2001 .0081
2002 .0082
2003 .0081
2004 .0077
2005 .0061
2006 .0102
2007 .0085
2008 .0061

Of course with around 3000 BIP per year, one SD is .0017, so these numbers should read something like “plus or minus .0034” which is a pretty large range compared to the sample means.

Here are the same numbers for position players only:

1990 .0283
1991 .0290
1992 .0260
1993 .0320
1994 .0374
1995 .0367
1996 .0397
1997 .0367
1998 .0383
1999 .0415
2000 .0427
2001 .0416
2002 .0384
2003 .0391
2004 .0410
2005 .0378
2006 .0404
2007 .0372
2008 .0372

The SD on these numbers, with 130,000 BIP per year or so, is .00055, so these are plus or minus .0011 (at 2 sigma), so that the numbers themselves (the sample means) are pretty reliable.

It appears that both pitchers and batters saw a substantial rise in HR/BIP around 94 and 95.  It is hard to tell if the pitchers saw a “lag” or there is simply too much noise in one year of pitcher data.


#19    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 02:47

The paper is very good.  As Alan says in #15 above, it has nothing to do with evidence of steroid use in baseball.  It is simply an analysis that suggests that IF players are able to increase lean muscle mass by 10% (or so), whether by steroids or anything else (and he cites some studies that suggest that that number is reasonable if not conservative), that they are able to increase bat speed by 3-4%, which can result in an increase in home run numbers on the order of 40%, for the best home run hitters.

This is a profound conclusion, I think.  Many people think that IF steroids are able to increase performance, that it would result in maybe a few extra home runs here and there. 

This paper, although, as I said, not discussing any evidence or not of steroid use in baseball, puts Walker’s article to shame.

As far as whether steroid use increases strength (lean muscle mass) in the first place, the author mentions some studies that suggest that that is definitely the case.  He says that the studies that suggest that there is no effect (the ones that Walker and Gimble like to cite) generally suffer from methodological problems, such as too low doses and no nutrition and weight training to go along with the steroid use.  The author says that there is evidence that the effects of steroids are most evinced when taken in high doses and concurrent with proper nutrition and weight training. He does say that there is a scarcity of controlled experimental studies on steroid use, for obvious reasons.

It seems to me that the arguments against steroids having any effect on strength and muscle mass increase are similar to the ones against evolution, the holocaust, and global warming.  You can pretty much find SOME studies that will support just about any claim, no matter how wrong that claim is.


#20    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 03:34

This is off topic, but I do have a complaint about the years that most people associate with the steroid era. In my highly subjective opinion, I believe the steroid era began in the mid 80’s. From 1986 to 1992 (both leagues), there was a 25% increase in homeruns compared to 1977 to 1985. The runs-per-game from 1977 to 1985 (4.45 AL, 4.10 NL) is identical to the runs-per-game from 1986 to 1992 (4.47 AL, 4.10 NL). There was only 1 new ballpark from 1986 to 1992, there were no rule changes, no equipment changes, like a juiced-ball. What caused the power spike?

I believe that a few of the pitchers who were logging 300+ IP in a season during the early 70’s were also using steroids. I also have suspicions about Hank Aaron using steroids. His career path is very similar to Bonds.


#21    Brian Cartwright      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 03:42

MGL/18 - the bump you see in position player HR% in 1999-2001, if you re-run by league you will see that it only occurs in the NL, the AL is flat, and even taking Barry Bonds out barely moves the league numbers. I don’t know why, but it’s there.


#22          (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 05:47

#14:  A comment on the pitchers’ batting from 1990-2000.  Effectively, this is an unclosed set of 60-80 players a year (five starters times the number of NL clubs, which increased from 12 to 16 in the period described).  I don’t know if the change seen isn’t a random variation you might expect to see with such a sample size from year to year or how it varies from other periods.  And of course, pitchers are also known to have taken steroids and, so far as I know, the same steroids the hitters were taking.  So I don’t think pitchers’ home run rates in the period prove or disprove anything about steroids.


#23    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 07:26

I just want to point out to this article I wrote regarding the changes in HR rates, which controls for the identity of the batter, pitcher, park.  That is, it guarantees that the two pools being compared are identical in terms of parameters (the big ones anyway):
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/changes-in-home-run-rates-during-the-retrosheet-years/


#24    Guy      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 07:58

"The SD on these numbers, with 130,000 BIP per year or so, is .00055, so these are plus or minus .0011 (at 2 sigma), so that the numbers themselves (the sample means) are pretty reliable.”

This means that HR rates vary much more than they “should.” Changes much larger than expected random variation occur all the time.  From 2005 to 2006, and again from 2006 to 2007, we see 6 sigma swings.  It appears that the “true” HR rate changes nearly every year.  I don’t believe we see similar changes in other metrics like BABIP (but haven’t looked carefully). Any thoughts on why we see such large changes in HR rate?


#25    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 09:25

Terps, did Bonds’ career path include switching to a much more favorable home ballpark later in his career?

Aaron in County Stadium:  180 HR in 3245 AB’s

Aaron in Fulton County Stadium:  190 HR in 2226 AB’s.

Just sayin’…


#26          (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 11:18

I did a comparison of Bonds and Aaron. I used SLG relative to league average. No park adjustments were made. But it still looks like Bonds did alot better as he got older, compared to Aaron. There are two graphs on this at

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2007/8/16/13381/8381


#27    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 15:28

The point I was trying to make was that PED’s have been a part of baseball culture for at least 40 years. I should have made this point without mentioning specific players or groups of players. It is just frustrating that the PED focus is only on players whose careers have spanned over the last 20 years. Players before this era seem to get a free-pass when it comes to speculation about PED use.


#28    Rally      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 16:42

I guess you’re talking about greenies and such?

Because if players from the 60’s/70’s used steroids, they sure were not the same kind used today.  Watching old games from that time it is striking how normal looking the players were back then.  When a 5’11 175 pounder could be the top power hitter in the game.


#29    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 17:02

You should watch hockey players from back then as well.  Indeed, you should see hockey players from the 1930s and 1940s, how small they were.

And, I have no doubt that hockey players of today are faster and more agile than those of 70 years ago.

All I conclude from the body type is that players in the NHL of today compared to yesteryear are: stronger, faster, more agile, in better shape, and simply better players.  And that has nothing to do with steroids, considering the several hundred players that are tested for the Olympics every 4 years, and only one guy was tested positive (excluding Theodore who had the TUE).  I’d also imagine that the testing process is in place for the annual World Championships, but that’s just a guess on my part.

Players are motivated to be in shape because of $$.  Steroids can help, but the change in body types among players tells me nothing about that.


#30    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/10 (Tue) @ 19:29

Yes, there is little doubt that true HR rates change all the time - parks, strike zone changes, changes in personnel, bats, balls, strength training, chemicals, approaches at the plate, expansion, weather.  Did I miss anything?

I am sure that there were players using PED’s (steroids or otherwise) as far back as they were available.  How far back steroids were available and how widely available they were, I have no idea.  I suspect (strongly) that they were not widely available in the 60’s and 70’s and that therefore many fewer players took them and that therefore you would need much stronger evidence than a “career path” to even remotely suspect a player was using.  It is simple Bayesian probability.  Estimate how many players are taking and then incorporate that into any evidence you have that a player is taking.  The first part is critical to the final probability.  If 0% of players are taking steroids and you have a guy who all of a sudden sees a late career increase in power and looks like his head has grown 2 sizes, well there is still a 0% chance he was using steroids. If 30% of all players are using steroids, then he might have a 90% chance of being a steroid user.

I think it is reasonable to think that many fewer players, if any, were using steroids in the 60’s and 70’s than in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s.  Therefore, to conclude or suspect with any certainty that a player from the 60’s and 70’s was using steroids requires a lot of strong evidence.  Suspecting Aaron based on his career path is questionable at best, given the likelihood that few players were using PED’s back then.  Again, a clear Bayesian probability problem.


#31    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/11 (Wed) @ 16:01

Tango, you should break this thread out into its own, as now it is a weird hybrid of junk science bashing and a very enlightening Q & A session on bat-ball physics…


#32    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/11 (Wed) @ 16:40

Great idea… will do....



#34    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/18 (Wed) @ 19:01

I just happened on this discussion thread, and, as the subject of it, would like to make some points.  This will take a while, and I hope the length will be acceptable to the board managers.

I am distressed to see that on the two web sites at issue I apparently did not make plain enough the essentials.  Let me, then, summarize those essentials.  First, in short, simple terms: there has been no nontrivial change in baseball players’ offensive productivity for at least a third of a century.  None.

The entirety of offense is scoring runs: more offense means more runs, and more runs means more offense.  Let us begin with 1977, the first year for the new Rawlings-brand baseball (but don’t think that there’s anything hiding in the closet pre-1977: that year is just a convenience).  The period from 1977 on more than includes the so-called “steroids era”: even George Mitchell, whose picture appears in dictionaries next to the phrase “axe to grind”, doesn’t put its start earlier than the early 1980s.  Since offense is runs, we track run-scoring: that is not “a measure” of offense--it *is* offense, period.  Since seasonal lengths have varied in that period, we use runs per game as the metric.  And what do we see?

Offense is virtually perfectly flat from 1977 through right now, with the sole exception of a massive jump in 1993.  Let me say that again, because it is a simple, clear, hard fact that apparently very few people are getting their minds around.  From 1977 through 1992, inclusive, run-scoring--offense--was essentially perfectly flat; from 1994 through 2008, run-scoring was essentially perfectly flat.  By “essentially flat” I mean that there is necessarily a little statistical noise, on the order of plus 2% here or -3% there; but the jump over 1993 was a whopping +13%.  All the seasonal numbers are there, on my main site’s page at http://highboskage.com/juiced-ball.shtml (quite recently much re-worked using material borrowed from the more recent and extensive pages on the http://steroids-and-baseball.com site).

Let us first make an assumption: that the jump in 1993 was from a change in the baseball.  If we assume that for the moment, and thus subtract out that single jump, then for the past third of a century, the 32 years from 1977 through the present (a period I’d guess longer than the entire lifetime of some reading this), baseball players’ offense has been flat.  As Casey famously said, “You could look it up.”

Now about that assumption.  Let me repeat: 1977 through 1992, 16 years, stable (average fluctuation about 2.4% excepting the one bizarre hiccup in 1987 that to this hour remains unexplained); 1994 through 2008, 15 years and counting, stable (2.3% average variation); one-year jump in 1993: +13%.  I have yet to hear any theory whatsoever that can explain a sudden permanent major jump up from one stable state to another other than a change in the baseball itself.  The absolutely crucial point, which--again--too many people seem unable or unwilling to wrap their heads around is the drastic suddenness of the jump.  Any other theory founders on that suddenness.  (This is not even to get into the supporting physical analyses of actual balls, notably the six-month University of Rhode Island study involving five distinguished analysts.)

And for pity’s sake, anyone who drags in expansion is simply ignoring the facts: the average effect of expansions on offense has been, in round numbers, about zero.  (OK, I lie: it has averaged a net +1% over three expansions: -5% in 1961, +5% in 1969, and +2.75 in 1998, making the stated average of +1%).  Even neglecting the average value, the individual shifts have been each far smaller than the 13% in 1993.  (As any child might ask, “Gee, Daddy, if expanison ‘dilutes’ pitching, why don’t it ‘dilute’ batting?") The numbers are on the site pages.

Let me follow the Army way of teaching ("say it three times") and repeat: 16 years flat, one-season huge jump, 15 years and counting flat at new level.  Flat, flat, flat--there, three times.

There is no advanced analytic theory here, no presuming or explaining, nothing but the cold, hard fact that offense has been virtually constant for (at least) the last third of a century (with, if anything at all, a very slight down-trend).

Now, moving right along . . . .

At the steroids-and-baseball.com site I focussed on the Power Factor, whereas at the highboskage.com site I focussed on runs; that is because the two places have different purposes.  At the highboskage.com site my intention is to make plain that the baseball itself has been altered; at the steroids-and-baseball.com site, it is to examine claims that steroidal or hormonal substances have altered performance.  Thus, the shift in metric from runs to power.  But that shift is only illusory, a means of focussing reader attention.  That is because run-scoring and home runs per hit track with near perfection: overlay a year-by-year graph of runs scored per game and home runs per hit and, if you use commensurate scales, they overlap so well that even using different colors it is hard to tell them apart.  (That very graph appears about half-way down the page at http://highboskage.com/juiced-ball.shtml).  So HR/H is an excellent proxy for R/G, which is to say for overall offense.  Next, we note that TB/H--the “Power Factor"--lies with even greater near-perfection over HR/H, that is, home runs manifestly dominate the PF (and there is no wiggle room for nonsense about speed for doubles and triples having any consequence to the PF’s utility).  And, as Aristotle noted some tens of centuries ago, if A=B and B=C, then C=A: the PF is a near-perfect proxy for run production.

Those who argue that steroidal/hormonal substances have effects beyond sheer power-- claims that the medical literature does not seem to support--do not seem to grasp that by doing so they are weakening, not strengthing, their case.  The greater the presumed magnitude of the purported effects, the more impossible it becomes to believe in those effects in the view of their striking non-appearance in actual real-world results.  (Being a native speaker of English, I am aware that “impossible” is an absolute word, and that one thing cannot be “more impossible” than another; what I mean is that the impossibility of believing that such PEDs accomplish anything becomes yet more striking when the claims for them are expanded.)

All that said, let me remark that--as is made very plain on the subject pages for those who will actually trouble to read them--the discussions of the physics of batting and of the physiology of steroidal/hormonal effects are not, were not designed to be, and are not claimed as, probative in themselves.  Their expressed intent was--given the irrefragible fact that there has been no increase in offense by any measure during what the sterodians like to call call “the steroids era"--to show that it is neither mysterious nor difficult to adduce reasons for the apparent disconnect between possible steroid use and that lack of manifest baseball results from it.  They are exercise in plausibility, not proof.

I have tried here to write calmly and rationally, but I must say that I am not best pleased with some of what I have read here.  The poster who suggests that I did not even do the numbers may not realize how insulting that is--especially because the numbers are meticulously tabulated on the site page http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml, which apparently he never bothered to examine.  If I may be permitted the liberty of quoting myself from the very front page of the steroids-and-baseball.com site: “I want to emphasize that point--that this page is only a summary--because a reader who wants to take issue with what is said here, if he or she is to do so with intellectual honesty, must refer to the detail pages and must meet the full analyses and references _appearing *there*_ with his or her own persuasive arguments and supporting citations. . . . I am painfully aware from long experience that no matter what I say and urge here, the many season ticket holders to Short Attention-Span Theater just will not go beyond this page, and will go away thinking they have ‘read about’ what this site is presenting. But I can only do what I can do.” So imagine how I feel when I read critiques from folk who openly avow that they did not even read all of the summary page, much less the real pages behind it.

--"Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. . . .” ("The Boxer”, Simon & Garfunkel)


#35    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/18 (Wed) @ 21:44

I’ll let the others directly involved respond to Eric’s points themselves.

I just want to make a point that when Eric says “run-scoring--offense--”, this could just as well be “run-allowing--defense--”.

Indeed, the runs per game figure being fairly flat simply means that the balance between the offense and defense has been relatively stable.  Or, it’s imbalanced to one side, while parks and/or climate and/or umpires and/or other conditions rebalance from the other side.

In hockey for example, goals per game was 7.5 or so through the 80s and then had a sudden shift downwards in the 90s, to the point where it now sits at 5.5 goals per game.  That doesn’t necessarily mean anything about goal scoring and offense.  It could simply be an imbalance in the quality of goaltenders that have come in, inspired by Patrick Roy, or it could be a system of defense-first strategy, or larger goalie equipment or anything else.

I’ll also direct Eric to my article linked in post 23, as evidence to support his position for the sudden jump in 1992-1994.


#36    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/18 (Wed) @ 21:51

I don’t have time to completely rehash the issue right now, but I have two questions:

One, what do you think that there is a marked decline in “power factor” (and I assume runs per game, since you said that the two mirror each other to a “t") from the 1960’s to around 1980, and then a drastic and marked leveling out since 1980?

Along the same lines, do you think that there are other things that can cause run scoring (runs per game or whatever) to fundamentally change such that a flay level of scoring during any time period could be due to two (or more) things canceling one another out?  For example, let’s say that around the start of the steroid era, the baseball was changed again to a less lively ball, and at the same time PED use increased levels of power and scoring.  Would not these two things cancel one another out?

I think the above questions are rhetorical and assuming you agree that the answer to them is, “Yes” how can “level scoring” be probative of “no PED effect” when level scoring could be due to a combination of any number of factors?

As I said in my initial post, what troubles me the most is the profound and continuous decline in power factor from the 60’s to around 1980 and then a sudden and drastic leveling out in 1980 to the present.  Even a 6 year old would think that that suggests that there was a factor that decreased power from the 1960’s onward and either that factor disappeared in 1980 or some other factor canceled it out!

In general, there are lots of really smart people who post on this web site.  There was no one on your side.  With all due respect, that has to mean something, unless you truly think you are smarter than all of them.  If nothing else, if you are a reasonable person, all of the criticism from the best and brightest on this site has to give you some pause, whether it turns out that you are right or wrong or that the truth lies somewhere in between, which is usually the case.


#37    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/18 (Wed) @ 22:51

I’d like to have Eric post a very concise thesis of his argument, because I don’t really have time to argue over a moving target.

Here are some things I think I read:
- if PED’s improved power hitting, then there would have to be a measurable, significant change in scoring.
- there has been no big change in scoring other than the step-change in 1993 (in which the baseball itself is strongly implicated), therefore PED’s cannot have had any impact on scoring.

Eric has hammered this straw man pretty hard, but here are a few points I’d appreciate hearing his thoughts on:

- (like MGL said) there are lots of factors at play here, some of which would tend to increase scoring, some of which would tend to decrease scoring.  Aren’t those other factors changing all the time?

- Anecdotally, as many pitchers as hitters have used PED’s.  Wouldn’t improved performance by PED-using pitchers tend to offset improved performance by PED-using hitters?

- Not every player used PED’s.  Whatever the net impact PED use by pitchers and hitters was would therefore be diluted in the overall player pool by the portion of players who didn’t use.

- A specific question about Barry Bonds: do you think Barry Bonds’ power hitting performance in the years 1999-2004 was significantly different from his power performance in the years 1995-1998?

If you believe it did, and if you believe what was very thoroughly documented in Game of Shadows (to wit: the first paragraph of Chapter 8: “Greg Anderson started Barry Bonds on Winstrol after the 1998 season."), how does your contention that PED’s don’t really enhance power hitting persist?


#38          (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 00:10

I agree with everything that Greg says (and it is a nice summary of the questions for Eric), other than Bonds.  Bonds is an anecdote.  Whether he used steroids or not, and whether his power significantly increased or not during the time he presumably used PED’s, and whether PED use leads to an increase in power/run scoring, is probative of nothing.

Clearly, whether PED’s “work” or not, there are going to be players who did NOT use steroids who saw their power increase suddenly for other reasons or just random fluctuation, and surely there are going to be players who used PED’s and who did not see their power numbers increase for whatever reason.  Etc.  Let’s not confuse anecdotes for evidence.  It takes lots of anecdotes (and not cherry-picking and selective sampling) to constitute scientific evidence.


#39    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 01:37

Well, if it were nothing more than his stats increasing, I’d agree.  But there is a lot of circumstantial evidence:

- started using PED’s after 1998 season (according to Game of Shadows)
- huge, unprecedented jump in power hitting performance immediately thereafter (13.86 AB’s per HR in seasons 10-13 of his career, then starts on PED’s, then immediately increases to 8.48 AB per HR for next six seasons = unprecedented)
- significant increase in number of 450+ foot homers in same time period (see link http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroidsExc&num=17)

So, if you’re saying that a change in performance like that of Bonds could happen by chance, even though he (reportedly) began using PED’s at the exact time the performance change happened, and even though the change was unprecedentedly huge, and his change in physical size was correspondingly enormous, and his ability to hit extremely long homers increased markedly at the same time (absent a change in the baseball) - that strains my credulity beyond the breaking point.

If a person got shot dead on the street, and when the police arrived I was standing a few feet away, had powder residue on my right hand, and was carrying a gun that was one bullet short of a full magazine, and I happened to not like the victim, it is possible that I am not the shooter, but very unlikely.

Now, I again would like Eric to clarify what he is actually asserting: is he saying that PED’s don’t help everyone?  That may well be true.  Is he saying that PED’s don’t help as much as some people think?  That may also be true.  However, if he’s saying that PED’s don’t help anyone, I can’t agree - Bonds wrecks that proposition for me.

So, MGL, I can agree that the Bonds anecdote doesn’t prove such things as “PED’s help everyone immensely”, or “PED’s are the only reason home runs are up since 1993”, or any such thing. 

However, I cannot buy into any alternate explanation for Bonds’ ludicrous increase in power hitting between Oct. 1998 and April 1999.  The “p-value” for his post-1998 and pre-1998 performances coming from the same underlying distribution is infinitesmal…


#40    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 01:47

MGL: reading your #38 a bit more closely, I think we agree on this.  Bonds doesn’t prove much other than that PED’s radically changed one player’s performance - and it seems clear that you agree with that.  Whether Eric’s position (and I’m hoping he’ll return and clarify it) can allow for Bonds I am interested to see…


#41    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 01:49

I am not sure, but I would think that even if we were 100% sure that Bonds took PED’s and we knew when, that his stats proving the point that PED’s significantly helps at least one person, flies in the face of the scientific method. Anecdotes can sometime be one piece of evidence and, as in the example you gave, one piece of evidence can be strong, but I seriously doubt that Barry Bonds is very probative of the general question of whether PED’s have a significant positive effect on baseball performance. 

You would have to ask Eric himself, which you are, but I think his thesis is that PED’s absolutely unequivocably do not affect performance, and thus, any performance increase by a known or suspected user, no matter how large, must be a coincidence, i.e., statistical noise.  But he would have to answer that question.

I agree that Bonds and other players’ performance are part of a body of evidence that strongly supports the effect of PED use in baseball.

The explanation for no overall increase in rpg or power stats that you propose, which is that pitchers and batters cancel one another out, is an intriguing question for Eric since a large part of his “PED’s have no effect” thesis is based on no overall increase in run scoring, which in an of itself is dubious since we have all pointed out that there can be many countervailing effects in baseball.

I don’t know what else to say to him, other than his rebuttal was a rehash of what he wrote in his two articles and was conclusory in nature.


#42    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 03:03

My original reply is apparently unpostable--too long, I suppose ("Preview" just flips me back to the start with a blank entry box).  So I’ll omit the quoted questions and see if that’s a sufficient shortening, though the paragraphs may seem a bit disconnected in consequence.

As to the 20-year 1960/1980 decline, the things to note are that it was gradual--no great jumps in any one year--and it was steady.  Numerous factors could be suggested, and I don’t feel I have any special insight to offer.  I suppose one of the more likely would be the steadily growing attractiveness to young athletes of other professional sports than baseball, which has a lengthy, low-paying, low-exposure minor-league apprenticeship that football and basketball do not; along with that were, arguably, steadily bettering economic opportunities for all young men, and especially minority members.  But those are just plausible guesses.

About the eventual flattening out, my own guess--and I so qualify it--is that whatever the cause of the decline was, it had simply gone as far as it reasonably could.  Baseball was never going to reach a state in which no one ever gets a hit beyond a single, so there is obviously some sort of floor to decines in power and thus in scoring.  I reckon we just finally arrived at a state of stasis regarding talent in the sport, one that will likely remain more or less as it is till some new socio-economic shift (whatever it may be) intervenes.

As to multiple effects, plus and minus, that cancel out, obviously in abstract theory that’s possible, but the shift from theoretical possibility to real-world practicality is fatal.  Just the premise that two effects, each presumably of some non-trivial magnitude, more or less exactly cancel out takes a lot of salt to go down.  Another issue relates to the point I keep hammering: speed of shift.  No one argues that at some one moment, all the would-be PED users in baseball lined up like the Oklahomans in 1889, waiting for the gun to start ingesting PEDs.  PED use, of whatever magnitude it was or is, was necessarily something that built up from its bare beginnings of one or two men fooling with it to whatever level--and who knows that level?--it maxed out at (assuming that in fact it did max out about when the PR heat was turned up).  Thus, any hypothesized negative effect would have to have been building up at a more or less exactly countervailing pace.  That, in my opinion, shatters the willing suspension of disbelief.  (All quite aside from the point that no one that I know of suggests that there was any such run-reducing mechanism coming into play over the steroidans so-called “steroids era”.) If anyone would care to enumerate such mechanisms, especially those reducing scoring, we can discuss them individually and meaningfully.  I would be especially interested in those likely to reduce scoring at a rate that, by sheer coincidence, more or less exactly matched (and thus masked) the purported increasing offense from ever more numerous steroidal Frankensteins.

As to disagreements: not everyone in sight disagrees.  Any who trouble to read the material completely will find citations from five other authors, each of whom which I at least would call reasonably authoritative, with salient quotations and links to the source material--which ranges from Baseball Prospectus to The New York Times--each of whom concluded, some more vehemently than others, that there are no visible tracks in the snow.  As Professor DeVany remarked in his rather densely mathematical analysis, “There is no evidence that steroid use has altered home run hitting and those who argue otherwise are profoundly ignorant of the statistics of home runs, the physics of baseball, and of the physiological effects of steroids.” Nor was that list exhaustive, or intended to be. (And I am quite sad, actually, to see this degenerating into “My Daddy’s bigger than your Daddy” ad hominum argument.)

As to PEDs helping pitchers, possibly so, in which case the argument that steroids have distorted baseball records and achievements sublimates like dry ice in the sun.  But the evidence to hand, such as it is (and I cited it) suggests that pitching is even less likely to be affected.  (In an extensive article in the April 30, 2006 Washington Post titled “Do Steroids Give A Shot in the Arm? Benefits for Pitchers Are Questionable” [link at original page], Amy Shipley includes comments from numerous expert sources, from Dr. Frank Jobe to Dr. Mike Marshall, who uniformly feel that steroids do not help pitchers to any material extent.) Presumably Doctors Jobe and Marshall (yes, that Mike Marshall) have some street cred.

The argument that “even if PED use didn’t affect baseball as a whole to any measureable degree (which, as an irrefragable fact, it did not), nonetheless for a select few men it enabled otherwise-impossible achievements” is the last crack in the wall through which a steroidan might hope to escape.  Regrettably for their case, it requires yet another set of quite remarkable coincidences to hold.  In short, the percentage of men using to a significant degree multiplied by the presumed average achievement percentage, has to work out to a number small enough to be invisible in league-wide data, yet meaningful for the individual men.  That is not quite impossible.  If 10% of all MLB had been materially using PEDs (by which I mean using, not taking one or two experimental shots, and using well-calculated steroids, not hGH or watered-down Latin junk), and the average improvement per man was, say, 10%, that’s a 1% boost overall.  Mind, the net trend in the “steroid era” has been a bit down, so such a theory requires that overall performance is still declining at a more significant rate than the data indicate, masking the improvement coming from a relatively limited set of men. 

About Barry Bonds there is a good bit of discussion on the site, but it’s not on the first, summary page, so--since apparently no one went past that page--I’ll touch on it again.

As I type, I have before me a graph of Bonds’ year-by-year (indexed by age, not season year) relative PF (that is, his annual PF normalized by then-prevailing MLB levels), divided up into segments by park played in.  I wish I could include it here, but in brief it shows a slow but steady upward trend toward a peak at age 36.  From the general shape of the graph, an eyeball estimator would expect that to have been about 1.5 times the average PF; as we know, that was his annus mirabilis, and the actual value was between 1.6 and 1.65 the prevailing average.  It’s remarkable, but not so remarkable as all the ballyhoo about it seems to suggest.  The increase in his home-run production over the levels both before and--this is critical--after that year amounted to about one extra home run a week.  I again refer the curious to Professor DeVany’s paper, linked at the site.  I should add here, since very few seem to have actually read much of the site material, that there are quotations from a good number medical journals studying strength and aging, of which this one is thoroughly representative: “Cross-sectional studies indicate that isometric and concentric strength levels peak between the second and third decade, remain unchanged until the fourth or fifth decade, and start to decline from about the fifth decade . . . .” That is, it is normal and natural to be as strong at 40 or beyond as at 30.  What drives older men out of baseball is not that they can’t hit the ball as hard as ever, it’s the decline in their reaction time, the time it takes to start the swing.  Hank Aaron, who seems to be the Gold Standard of “no drugs”, had a relative PF that went up steadily till age 40, his age-39 being his highest ever; Frank Robinson’s was relatively flat throughout, and at age 39 (albeit with limited data) it was his highest ever.

If one doesn’t do the homework, one doesn’t find those things out, and one ends up making some remarkably naive observations, as too many already have about Bonds and his achievements.

In sum, there seems some desperate thirst for a belief that modern performance levels and achievements are somehow bogus, and a willingness to twist or avoid clear, simple facts to sustain that belief.  Why that is so, I have no more idea than any other armchair amateur shrink.  But really, if one thinks through the implications of the various “But what about” objurgations offered up as ways around the obvious, it calls to mind the fellow who would rather climb a tree to close his eyes than stand on the ground and look around him.  It has often been remarked over the years that baseball stands alone in sports, the one place where almost everyone insists that as regards achievements, the past was better, the present bad, and the future going to be worse.  Try that one on track and field events.


#43    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 04:33

You have a nice way with words, but as a very smart person myself, yet one who is extremely open-minded, as evinced by the NCAA basketball thread, I remain thoroughly unconvinced by your arguments, and find some of them laughable, such as, and I paraphrase, “It seems to be inconceivable that steroid use could appear to have an ‘all of a sudden effect’ yet you casually accept that whatever caused the steady decline to cease in 1980 occurred ‘all of a sudden’ as well.  As well, you admittedly have absolutely no idea what caused this 1960’s to 1980 decline, yet you seem to have the steroid thing, or lack thereof, all figured out. The lesson to you should be that the vagueries of run scoring over the long and short hall, are extremely complex and difficult if not impossible to make sense of, with any degree of certainty.  In this case, and I’ll paraphrase someone else, “Certainty is the province of the ignorant.”

A reasonable hypothesis by Greg is that PED’s have had a more or less countervailing (by no means does it have to be exactly countervailing) effect between pitchers and hitters.  You concede that possibility, yet you say something like, “if that is the case, then why get all upset over the records?” How about, “If that be the case (which you seem to admit as a possibility), then your entire thesis (that PED’s have little or no effect - not NET effect) is completely wrong!”

Out of one side of your mouth you are certain that PED’s do not and have not had any effect on player performance (not NET performance), and out of the other side of your mouth you admit the possibility that it DOES and HAS HAD an effect but that it could have been countervailing between pitchers and hitters, but if it were, we shouldn’t worry about it.  Huh?

Yes, Eric, we can all see that rpg, PF, etc. has not changed OVERALL for many, many years.  We can also see that many things known and unknown have caused the true rate to change from time to time.  There is no dispute about that.  From that, to make the (gigantic) leap to, “Therefore PED’s cannot have any effect on player performance,” is preposterous, in my opinion.  Keep in mind that at no point in time am I saying that PED’s have definitely had a positive effect on player performance for both pitchers and hitters.  I have no idea, and apparently there is some legitimate debate as to yes or no.  However, your certainty is simply untenable in my opinion, and as I initially said, I will remain forever skeptical of someone who has an unequivocable position on something which is generally considered controversial and then inundates us with evidence to “prove that position.” The fact that a position is controversial and that there is uncertainty in the scientific and other communities, by definition, means that there is plenty of evidence on both sides.  Your hammering us with the evidence on YOUR side does not do anything for me.  And your telling us that there is NO evidence on the other side, or that that evidence is wrong or faulty, is tautological - of course you are going to say that - we already know how certain you are of your position.

As far as I am concerned, everything that needs to be said about this has already been said.  I respect your opinion and your stance on this issue, and you certainly know much more about it than I (although that by no means makes you right).  I don’t particularly like debating something with someone who is certain about something and is not likely to ever change their stance regardless of what is or is not presented to them. To me, that is sort of like banging my head against a wall, which I don’t particularly like to do, at least not until the regular season starts in April.  So, I’ll leave the rest of this debate to better folks than I.  I appreciate your stopping by and being quite civil and informative.  Stay as long as you like of course…


#44    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 08:50

I think some ideas are getting conflated there.  The 1993 jump was not merely very sudden: it was a jump from one stable level to another stable level.  The “elbow” in the power curve was not a shift from a stable level: it was the termination of a gradual process that very obviously must have a terminal point, else we’d end up no extra-base hits at all ever, which is ludicrous.

Also, there is a huge difference between having plausible guesses about a clearly manifested phenomenon--the 20-year decline--and trying to explain, as others are, how and why an utterly invisible phenomenon “really” exists.  And I see that yet again, the evidence is being ignored: what about Jobe’s and Marshall’s (and other experts’ ) opinions that PEDs do not do much to help pitchers?  Well, that doesn’t fit the hypothesis about a magic perfect balance between PED-much-aided offense and PED-much-aided defense, so we’ll just walk on by.  I did not “admit” (this is like cops, no one ever says anything, they “admit” it) that PEDs work for both pitchers and batters: I was trying to point out that you can’t eat your cake and have it too, that even if one insists on amazing effects from PEDs, one is still left with a net push.  (And all of this fails to even touch on the ethical questions of why anyone in their right mind should give a flying wahoo about whether PEDs work.)

The “leap” criticized above seems to be that of moving from the fact of zero effects to the conclusion that there are zero causes.  If that’s a “leap” of logic, so be it.

I find fascinating the utter dogmatism with which alleged dogmatism is being attacked.  “I am dead certain in my beliefs, so you have no right to be certain in yours if they disagree with mine.” I frankly do not care what this or that person believes.  I have made some effort to discover, examine, and expound the data and what they seem to demonstrate, for the possible benefit of those with open minds.  If that is “dogmatic”, again, so be it.  I am dogmatic in my beliefs that the Earth revolves around the Sun, that pigs can’t fly, and not a few other matters for which I think the evidence quite clear.  I add the non-effects of PEDs in baseball to that list, on the same basis.  All I hear back is the hell with evidence and logic, we just know that PEDs must be powerful aids to offense, and anyone who disagrees, on the clear evidence, is being “dogmatic”.  OK.

I, too, feel that this is about where I came into the movie.  The facts are as they are.  Folk are free to interpret them as they like, but for myself, I prefer conclusions that are supported by data, not that fly in the face of it.  As Judge Harry used to say, I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out.


#45    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 11:51

Eric, thanks for the reply.  A few comments/questions:

1.  Can you please provide a concise thesis statement?  Long explanations can only help if the person you’re explaining to is completely clear on what your position is.  If your position is that PED’s definitively do not enhance power hitting, fine, let’s then continue discussing that.  If that’s not your thesis, what is it?

2.  If one “does one’s homework” on Aaron, particularly looking at his AB/HR splits home and away, one finds that his overall downward trend coincides with a few key external factors: a move to (higher altitude, hotter) Atlanta Fulton County Stadium in 1966, the moving in of the power alley fences in that park in 1969, and expansion in 1969.

Aaron’s away AB/HR from 1956 (the beginning of the Retrosheet era) to 1968 (the end of the pre-expansion National League) show an overall trend of going up by 0.18 per year (i.e. a small but steady reduction in home run performance).  His 1969-1974 away numbers show a step drop from 1968 to 1969, and then larger yearly increase in AB/HR of 0.5 per year.  His 1975 and 1976 AB/HR numbers while a Milwaukee Brewer go dramatically higher, but they weren’t part of the 0.5 per year trend.

Aaron’s home AB/HR from 1956 to 1965 (the last Braves season in Milwaukee County Stadium) show two general trends: a drop (i.e. increase in power) from 1956-1960 (Aaron’s age 22-26 years), and a steady trend from 1961 -1965 (his age 27-31 years).  When he made the move to Atlanta, there was a step drop in AB/HR, followed by three years of rising AB/HR from 1966-68.  From 1969-73 (post-expansion and shorter power alley fences at home), Aaron’s AB/HR were noticeably lower (i.e. better power).  Then from 1974 to his retirement Aaron’s home AB/HR climbed rapidly.

When I look at those numbers, I see some significant factors influencing Aaron’s power performance, factors that most people would acknowledge: a move to a higher-altitude, warmer ballpark, a 10 foot reduction in the fence distances at that park, expansion of MLB by 4 teams.  Were yu aware of these changes and their influence on Aaron?  Do you still maintain that Aaron represents a hitter whose personal contribution to his power trend was positive over his career?

3.  This last one is the one I still can’t believe I read.

“The increase in his home-run production over the levels both before and--this is critical--after that year amounted to about one extra home run a week.”

Do you realize that the MLB schedule is 26 weeks long?  You just blithely pooh-poohed an increase in Bonds performance of 1 home run per week, or 26 for a season!  You’re classifying this as “remarkable, but not so remarkable as all the ballyhoo about it seems to suggest.” Are you serious?

By the way, I’ve mailed MGL the analysis file and charts for Aaron, hopefully he can link them here, I can’t do that from where I am right now…

Greg


#46    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 12:04

You can email them to me if you like tom~tangotiger~net ...


#47          (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 12:08

The starting point of the Tobin analysis is the observation of an increase in home runs per ball in play (HRBiP) for elite hitters.  Specifically, finds an increase from 0.10 for hitters in the “pre-steroid era” (Killebrew, Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Robinson) to 0.15 for hitters post 1994 (Sosa, McGuire, Griffey, Bonds, Palmeiro).  These are facts.  He then sets out to inquire whether a plausible argument can be made that this increase is due to PEDs.  I have followed his analysis very carefully.  Although I don’t necessarily agree with each point he makes, I do find that his conclusion reasonably follows from his initial assumption.  Namely, it is plausible that a 10% increase in muscle mass can result in a 50% increase in HRBiP. 

Tobin--being a good scientist--does not take his result as “proof” that PED’s have increased home run production.  His argument is really one of plasibility.  In some sense, HRBiP is too sensitive a metric of performance.  A small (few mph) increase in batted ball speed is what gives rise to the dramatic increase in home runs.  Other things might contribute, e.g., a more lively baseball.  There is no real evidence that I am aware of (other than anecdotal) that the baseball is more lively today than it was 30 years ago.  There are studies showing that the construction of the ball has changed, but that does not prove it is more lively.  And, I would argue, it is impossible to know after the fact.  We don’t have a large collection of untouched baseballs from earlier eras that can be tested using well-established scientific methods. 

In this regard, one thing that I don’t understand about Walker’s analysis is his normalization of the power factor to changes in the baseball.  What is the basis for this normalization?  If I recall, it is the flatness of the (normalized) power factor over time that leads him to claim that there is no increase that needs to be explained.  So, it is crucial to know how his normalization procedure works.  If this discussion were scientific inquiry, it would be subjected to peer review (as Tobin’s work was).  So, let’s subject the normalization procedure to peer review.


#48    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 13:22

Here is Greg’s file on Aaron:
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/images/uploads/Aaron_Splits_chart.xls


#49    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 15:46

Testing, testing, 1-2-3…


#50    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 16:57

me testing as well…


#51    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/19 (Thu) @ 23:30

I’m about talked out here, but polite questions deserve answers.  I break this up into two successive posts because apparently the length of it combined chokes the upload.  This is Part 1.

I have two related but distinct theses.  The first is that in evaluating modern performance numbers we need to accept and allow for what I hold to be an obvious fact, that the ball was materially (c. 12% - 13%) “juiced” between 1992 and 1994.  The second is that regardless of how extensive the use of various PEDs was/is or wasn’t/isn’t in MLB, there is no detectible influence on baseball results attributable to them--or, in fact, to anything but the juiced ball.  Major-league players, considered in the aggregate, have been performing at essentially constant levels of ability for at least 32 years now, and probably a bit longer.  As a subsidiary but important point, for the lack of any detectible evidence for PED effects on results to not signify that PEDs simply do not have any significant net effect on performance in baseball requires a precise combination of individually unlikely or contra-factual assumptions so miraculous as to render the concept risible.

The evidences for those things are explored at what I consider more than sufficient length on, respectively, the “Juiced Ball” page of the HBH site and the “Actual Baseball Effects” page of the Steroids site.  Further, because steroids obviously do have some effects on their users, I explored at what again I consider sufficient length various plausible reasons why they would not have an effect on baseball performance (as opposed to, say, swimming performance); those explorations were never intended to be dispositive--the game stats are that--but illustrative of the point that there is nothing occult about how and why baseball results seem unaffected by PED use.

As to Aaron, let me adduce this graph: steroids-and-baseball-dot-com/private/AaronAgeRatio-dot-png (I do it like that because it is not up for public display and I don’t want any SEs crawling it).  That I made just for myself, and have now uploaded it as-is.  While there are clearly the expected noisy ups and downs, the trend seems awfully clear, and while there are litttle bumps at the points mentioned (age 32 and age 35), there is nothing out of line with the average trend.  Aaron hit his peak PF as an everyday player at age 39, four years after the last events suggested as career boosters for him.  And, as I noted earler, there is nothing medically startling in that.  Or, if one looks at Frank Robinson (steroids-and-baseball-dot-com/private/RobinsonAgeRatio-dor-png), one does not see an upward trend, but one does see a very flat line right out to age 38, when it was on an uptick (and it was actually much higher the year after, but only in limited action).  Now if one looks at other sluggers from accepted-as-clean eras, they do not all show such trends, though some do; the point is that aging is idiosyncratic, and it suffices for the instant purposes merely to demonstrate that at least some indubitably “clean” sluggers performed at or above their career norms even in their late 30s: it is possible, it is not exceptional, and it thus not only does not prove but does not even suggest that hitting a career high in power at age 36, as Bonds did, is anything extraordinary.

(Part 2 follows.)


#52    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 17:15

Part 2

(Somehow, the original of this, which I had thought posted, was not; that text is lost, so this is an approximate reconstruction from memory.)

Am I serious about an extra home run a week being remarkable but not earth-shattering?  Yes.  The annals of baseball contain many examples of batters who had a one-season home-run total that wildly exceed their prior or following accomplishments, and many are from the “pre-steroids” period.  It is only when the man is a major power hitter to begin with, and his results for that annus miribalis themselves attention-grabbing, that people seem to go postal.  There are lists here and there of such players, but I’ve lost the ones I had; still, here are a few to ponder: Bert Campaneris, 1970 (22 from a guy who othewise averaged 4); Davey Johnson, 1973 (43 from a guy who otherwise never hit over 18); Hack Wilson, 1930 (50% above prior career high); Wally Moses, 1937 (25 in a long career of otherwise single-digit results); and a fellow you may have heard of, Roger Maris.  That omits all such artifacts from after 1980, though I’d like to meet the fanatic who thinks Terry Steinbach was on something in 1996 (come to think on it, no, I wouldn’t); and the nonsense over Brady Anderson I’ll skip (the very freakiness of his 1996 convinces some that, regardless of the four following years of normalcy he “must have been” juicing).  That is far from an exhaustive list, but it more than suffices to demonstrate that such things do happen in the natural course of baseball events; compared to many, possibly all, of those, Bonds’ 2001 performance is only a mild aberration (HR/H about 20% above adjacent seasons).

As to a basis for “normalization of the power factor to changes in the baseball”, it’s quite simple, and the explanation--in literally graphic detail--has long been up at http://steroids-and-baseball.com/splice.shtml—but the principle couldn’t be simpler: at each of the three baseball-induced discontinuities (1920/1921, 1976/1977, 1992/1994), we subtract out from all subsequent years the artificial elevation from the juicing in question.  Not rocket science.  The case for 1993 having been a ball juicing is made at what I consider more than sufficient length at http://highboskage.com/juiced-ball.shtml; for 1977 there is no question at all, inasmuch as it was an new ball from a new manufacturer; and for the infamous “rabbit ball” of 1921, the case is made at many places all over the internet--and is, in any event, not much relevant to the instant discussion about PEDs.  (The change in, I forget, 1911, I think, to a cork-center baseball I just didn’t bother with, so as to keep things relatively simple and obvious.)

Whether it is plausible that a 10% increase in muscle mass can result in a 50% increase in HRBiP is, to me, far from clear.  As I suggested, the crux is that Tobin assumes that all muscle mass is equal, positing that body weight measures it (meaning John Kruk obviously was a much more powerful batter than Joe Morgan).  The medical evidence, which I quote at some length, strongly suggests something different.  I feel no need here to re-hash what appears in copious detail on the site, and just wish people would actually read it (most of the questions and remarks on this thread making it plain that they have not).

It is, I think, worth musing on a concept that posits a great force actively and continually at work in the world but that yet is invisible and whose effects cannot be told apart from what one would ordinarily expect of the world without that effect, but which effect must be believed in because those who do believe in it know it’s true because, well, because they know it.  In the world at large, such belief systems are called “religions”, and their more ardent followers tend to get very angry, sometimes violently so, whenever anyone asks them where the beef is.  For myself, at least as to baseball, I prefer to shave with Occam’s Razor, and let the cultists who just “know” in their heart of hearts that, lack of evidence notwithstanding, PEDs (or the Easter Bunny or something) must be behind all major achievements these days believe what they like in despite of the evidence (just like creationists).  There is no sport I know of save baseball that is characterized by so deep an insistence that today’s athlete cannot ever measure up to those of yesteryear.  Try that idea on in any other sport and see how it goes down.

“There is danger for him who taketh the tiger cub, and danger also for whoso snatches a delusion from a believer.” (lightly adapted from Hafiz)


#53    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 18:12

It is, I think, worth musing on a concept that posits a great force actively and continually at work in the world but that yet is invisible and whose effects cannot be told apart from what one would ordinarily expect of the world without that effect, but which effect must be believed in because those who do believe in it know it’s true because, well, because they know it.  In the world at large, such belief systems are called “religions”, and their more ardent followers tend to get very angry, sometimes violently so, whenever anyone asks them where the beef is.

You are preaching to the wrong audience here, Eric.  You won’t find a more skeptical, analytical, thoughtful, critical, and intelligent group of blog readers than on this site, if you don’t mind a little hyperbole.  That many of these kinds of people are NOT on your side should makes one (you) pause just a little from your ramblings and rants.  Just a little.


#54    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 18:41

Eric,

Bonds did not have a one-year aberration above his career trajectory.  His home run totals shifted drastically higher and stayed there for (at least) the next 6 years.  And they just happened to do that the very year that he became noticeably larger and stronger.  And that just happened to occur the very year that he (according to Game of Shadows) began using PED’s.

You can’t (well, shouldn’t) split up these events like they are unrelated.  Here’s an analogy:

While standing in my front yard, I hear a very loud noise (BANG!) from the back part of my house.  A few seconds later, I see billowing black smoke rising into the sky above my house.  A high-pitched shrieking noise begins coming from inside my house, which I recognize to be my fire alarm.  A few seconds later, I begin to feel noticeably warmer on the side of my body facing my house, and then the front windows of my house shatter outwards.

Next, I begin to think:

- I’ve heard lots of loud noises before.  Not all loud noises are explosions.

- I’ve been around lots of explosions before (military).  Not all explosions cause fires.

- I’ve seen smoke rising above my house before, like that time I spilled some of the barbecue sauce on the grill last summer.

- I’ve heard my fire alarm go off before, like the time I burned the popcorn in the microwave.

- I’ve felt warm on only one side of my body before.  Every time I face the sun on a hot day, in fact.  Nothing strange in that…

- Our windows have broken before, when a ball went through one of them.

Now what in all of this is supposed to make me think my house is on fire?

Eric, I happen to be with you on the idea that the ball likely changed in the 1993-94 time frame.  And I’m pretty open-minded in general.  I’m willing to listen about the relative impact of PED’s.  But there’s simply no way I can accept the premise that PED’s have no impact on power hitting unless/until you (or anyone) can explain Bonds.  And so far, you haven’t even come close to explaining Bonds. 

Those one-year aberrations you listed are nothing like the massive, sustained transformation Bonds underwent, and its fairly disingenuous of you to suggest that they are (or in other words, I don’t believe that you believe that Bert Campaneris’ career year is a valid comparison to Bonds).


#55    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 19:08

Greg, like the “religion” analogy that Eric gives in his Part II above, trying to debate anything with him on this issue is exactly like trying to debate the issue of the existence of God with a religious fanatic.  Eric is so sure of his position that no argument or evidence is ever going to cross that boundary between his eyes or ears and his brain.

As I said, I appreciate the discussion and I appreciate him stopping by and continuing to comment even in the face of “harsh criticism.” I wish that more people would do the same (Dewan?). The readers of this blog can read his comments and refer to his articles and his other references; they can then do the same with the comments and references from the other posters, do some research on their own, use some critical thinking, and come up with thoughts, resolutions, and conclusions of their own.

In my opinion, by no means is this a yes or no issue, which I have said several times already (I do not know whether and, if yes, by how much, PED’s can and have affected player performance, and I do not know, but for other countervailing effects, whether PED use has had an effect on baseball scoring), and a reason I find curious that Eric accuses me of being “dogmatic” (he did not address that accusation specifically to me, but I was the only one debating him at the time).  The only thing I am being “dogmatic” about is in my criticism of his arguments, and even then I am trying to have an open mind, which is my whole point…


#56    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 19:32

Maybe we’re all applying different standards of proof here, too.  Is there a preponderance of evidence that PED’s can (not always do, not usually do, not often do, not sometimes do) improve power hitting?  In my opinion, yes, because I’ve been convinced that Bonds did use PED’s, and immediately after he started using PED’s he showed an immediate, gigantic and sustained improvement in power hitting. 

Now, am I convinced beyond a reasonable doubt?  I’d probably hesitate to say yes or no, because I haven’t immersed myself in the evidence (both for and against).

I’m not sure how Occam’s Razor fits in with Bonds - I thought it meant that the simplest explanation is usually correct.  A guy (reportedly) starts taking PED’s (which are known to make users bigger and stronger), he gets bigger and stronger, exhibits a new ability to hit the ball farther than he did before that was not presaged by any sort of increasing trend in power before this, and hits (dramatically) more balls over the fence.  How is Occam’s Razor supposed to point me somewhere other than PED’s for Bonds?

And I know Eric doesn’t want to talk about Bonds, he wants to keep bringing it back to trends of adjusted league-wide numbers, but I think Bonds is a valid point to consider: how can the premise that PED’s are utterly ineffective persist if Bonds derived significant benefit from them?  I don’t think it can, and that’s why I keep harping on Bonds. 

Eric says there’s no such thing as a duck, and I have a web-footed, feathery, plump animal with a bill that quacks in my hands.  What is it then, if not a duck?


#57    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 22:00

Bringing Occam’s Razor into a specific argument is silly.  Obviously the simplest answer is not ALWAYS (or even close) the correct one.

And I wholeheartedly agree that we are not talking about anything definite here, beyond any kind of a reasonable doubt, in either direction (for or against the notion that PED’s increase baseball performance).

One of the general problems with Eric’s thesis is that at some point he concludes that it is 100% (or close to it, I guess) certain that PED’s do NOT have an effect on baseball performance.  Once that is in his head, there is no reason at all to ever look at any more evidence and to ever listen to anyone’s point of view.

OK, I really shouldn’t even say that.  It just makes it difficult to do that.  I have been near 100% sure of something and then changed my mind for various reasons.  It is just that once you convince yourself that you are 100% sure of something it becomes difficult to be objective and clear thinking about that issue ever again.  That is, I think, Eric’s problem.

As well, I think there are people who think that they are convinced that their view of the world is correct and never wrong and never subject to review, and there are people who don’t.  At least with respect to this issue, Eric seems to fall into the former category. I can be like that at times, and I don’t like it (for myself).

Eric’s 100% certainty seems to hinge mostly on the fact that overall offense has not changed throughout, before, and beyond the steroid era. That, of course, suggests two things:  One, that there is some kind of canceling effect between pitchers and hitters, which does not seem to me to be so miraculous and unlikely as Eric makes it out to be.  Two, that PED’s do not have any significant effect on baseball performance. 

However, it certainly does not rule out the fact that other influences during the same time period (and maybe those influences and PED’s are related - e.g., maybe MLB un-juiced the ball to mask PED use) may have masked the rise in offense that would have occurred via PED use.  However unlikely anyone may think that is, I can’t imagine that it is anywhere near zero, as Eric claims it is (who cares what Eric claims, right?)

Everything else, the medical stuff and all that, if Eric or anyone else claims that the “literature is clear that PED’s have little or no effect on baseball performance” well, I’d have to lump that person in with conspiracy theorists and other such “misguided” persons.  There are obviously studies and experiments on both sides of the issue.  If Eric is claiming that all of the ones opposite his side are wrong, well, why the hell should we believe him?  I don’t know of any expertise, scientific or medical, he has on the subject of PED’s and human physiology.  Who cares what he thinks of the various studies? 

Of course, as always, I could be wrong…


#58    Eric Walker      (see all posts) 2009/03/20 (Fri) @ 23:09

I intend this to be my last post to this thread, because it is all getting repetitious.  I do not know how anyone can look at the graph I cited earlier, of Bonds’ PF, and say that there is something out of line.  There is a significant increase between ages 33 and 34, but eyeing the graph it looks very much like a recovery to his previously well-established levels.  Stick your thumb over the single 73-HR freak year and there is nothing remarkable about the line.  And if there were anything to remark on, it would be the mild slump in the middle of his Candlestick years; and contemporary accounts (a sample of which I have cited) suggest that the return to his established norms came after Bonds began to work out much more heavily even than in past years.

Included in the many things in this universe that I have no control over are what someone else may or may not find miraculous or unlikely.  What expert evidence there is on pitching, as already cited, suggests that there is little if any benefit to it from PEDs; to argue instead--in manifest despite of that evidence--that there is a benefit, and moreover that it exactly counterbalances the benefit to batters (even though strikingly different physical processes are involved in pitching a ball and in hitting it) seems to me to indeed require the miraculous and unlikely.  If it does not to someone else, then they and I have differing standards for “miraculous”.  And suggestions of yet other mysterious, as-yet-unnamed exactly counterbalancing effects (an un-juiced ball, presumably un-juiced in annual increments precisely calculated and tuned to match the changing number of men using PEDs each season), would that meet anyone’s criteria for miraculous and unlikely?  Perhaps I am alone in believing a comically bizarre phenomenon like that to have as close to zero possibility as anything in an infinite universe gets, but so it does seem to me.

Given the premise, which I still find unrefuted by any actual data (as opposed to wild suppositions), that overall PEDs have had no effect on baseball performance, when I turn my attention to a given man who is accused of having boosted his results with PEDs, I naturally want to see something that would be difficult or impossible to explain absent the PED-boost hypothesis.  But when I look at Bonds’ results as graphed, I see nothing that exceeds the bounds of normal likelihood.  Every man has ups and downs.  If ups are to be attributed to major external forces, what about the downs?  To what does one attribute the curious valley in Bonds’ numbers between roughly ages 30 and 33?  That valley looks to me much more in need of explaining than the stats from the other years of the man’s career.  For a man in Bonds’ well-known condition in those years, it seems risible to say Bonds was “an old 30” (what the Reds said of Frank Robinson).  That is why I refer to Occam’s Razor: there is nothing, to my eye, in Bonds’ numbers that looks like some strange jump-up: the progression in his mid-30s seems, to my eye, merely to follow the trend clearly established in his late 20s.

If those so deeply invested in believing in the effects of PEDs in general and on Bonds in particular would try to step back a pace or two, they’d see that the accusations continue to rest on supposition, not data, whereas the proposition that PEDs do not have such influences is supported by all available data.  Despite what has been alleged here, I am scarcely The Lone Ranger defending the hill: I cited half a dozen or so highly credible experts who also find no visible effects from putative PED use; they, too, I suppose are all dogmatic idiots.  Lookit: if you’re so bloody sure of all this, why can’t anyone provide supporting data? Where, exactly, are all these “obvious studies and experiments” that clearly show PED effects?  Why does everything asserted here have to ride on unnamed magically tuned “other influences” and “masking”?

But, as I noted, this is getting repetitious.  As Ed Murrow used to say, Good night, and good luck.


#59    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 02:01

Lookit: if you’re so bloody sure of all this, why can’t anyone provide supporting data? Where, exactly, are all these “obvious studies and experiments” that clearly show PED effects?

This list took me 1.3 minutes to find.

On the potential of a chemical Bonds: Possible effects of steroids on home
run production in baseball
R. G. Tobina
Department of Physics and Astronomy, Tufts University, Medford, Massachusetts 02155

N. Taylor, Anabolic Steroids and the Athlete McFarland, Jefferson,
NC, 2002.

J. George, “Androgenic anabolic steroids,” in Drugs in Sports, edited
by D. R. Mottram Routledge, London, 2005, 4th ed.

R. Hervey, “What are the effects of anabolic steroids?,” in Science and
Sporting Performance: Management or Manipulation, edited by B.
Davies and G. Thomas Clarendon, Oxford, 1982.

Bhasin, L. Woodhouse, and T. W. Storer, “Proof of the effect of testosterone
on skeletal muscle,” J. Endocrinol. 170, 27–38 2001

M. Kuhn, “Anabolic steroids,” Recent Prog. Horm. Res. 57, 411–434
2002.

I. M. Ferreira, I. T. Verreschi, L. E. Nery, R. S. Goldstein, N. Zamel, D.
Brooks, and J. R. Jardim, “The influence of 6 months of oral anabolic steroids on body mass and respiratory muscles in undernourished COPD
patients,” Chest 114, 19–28 1998.

J. D. Elashoff, A. D. Jacknow, S. G. Shain, and G. D. Braunstein, “Effects
of anabolic-androgenic steroids on muscular strength,” Ann. Intern
Med. 116, 387–393 1991.

Bhasin, T. W. Stoerer, N. Berman, C. Callegari, B. Clevenger, J. Phillips,
T. J. Bunnell, R. Tricker, A. Shirazi, and R. Casaburi, “The effects of
supraphysiological doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in
normal men,” N. Engl. J. Med. 335, 1–7 1996.

A. McMahon, Muscles, Reflexes and Locomotion Princeton University
Press, Princeton, 1984.

Now, I have no doubt that you would refute these studies, but PLEASE don’t insult our intelligence by pretending that no studies exist that will support the notion that taking certain substances typically known as PED’s or steroids, in certain dosages and for certain lengths of time can and does lead to increased athletic performance.  Is that some kind of a joke?  Eric, I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with the notion that it is close to 100% certain that PED’s do not and did not have any effect on baseball performance.  But to start throwing things out like, “There are no studies or credible medical or scientific opinions that exist that support the notion of PED effects on athletes?” Do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you start throwing out obvious fabrications like that?

Let me reprint what you just said in your last post:

Where, exactly, are all these “obvious studies and experiments” that clearly show PED effects?

If you want to pay me for my time, I’ll take a day or so and compile no less than 20 of them.  How’s that for an offer?  If I can’t, I’ll pay you twice what you pay me. Not studies that you will refute - I assume you will try and refute all of them.  You did not say, “all of these obvious studies that are irrefutable.” You said, “all of these studies” with the clear, 100% implication that they don’t exist.  In fact, I’ll pay your triple and we’ll get a moderator just to make sure that everyone follows the rules.


#60    Brian Cartwright      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 03:58

“Gee, Daddy, if expanison ‘dilutes’ pitching, why don’t it ‘dilute’ batting?”

I think this is a key to Eric’s analysis.

If batting and pitching levels change the same amount, but in different directions, there will be no change in overall run scoring, Eric reports the mean scoring to tell us there is no change, but nowhere in this thread is variance mentioned.

Expansion gave a social promotion from the minors to the majors for 28 batters and 22 pitchers. Every existing hitter in the league now gets to take some bats off 22 (or even 24) minor league pitchers. The existing pitchers get to face 28 minor league batters. The previous minor leaguers hit and pitch like minor leaguers, drawing dwn the league means, but the existing players have better lines, and bring the means back into equilibrium.

What changes is the variance, not the mean. The distance between best and worst has increased, and that is what we saw in the last 15 years - historic batting seasons at the same time as historic pitching seasons. I am still a skeptic on PEDs (Show me!), but if we presume that they were taken by a fairly equal proportion of batters and pitchers, and that they helped each roughly equally, then as in the expansion example, the mean will not change noticeably, but the variance of performances will increase.


#61    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 05:13

I will make some comments on Eric’s Article. I will limit them to the first part of his article, where he presents statistical evidence backing his claim that PED’s have had no discernible effect on power.

First, I am glad that the PED focus is on steroids and HGH. At the very beginning, he reserves the term PED’s for strength-building substances only. He doesn’t state his views on amphetamines, but I will state mine. I do not think amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs. Speaking from personal experience (yes I have experimented with amphetamines in the past, not anymore though), amphetamines do not make you faster, stronger, or smarter. In the long run, abuse of amphetamines would probably have a more negative effect on a player’s career. The weight loss, insomnia, paranoia, and nervousness associated with long-term amphetamine use would probably make a player perform worse over the long-haul.

Right away, Eric takes a dogmatic tone: “If PED’s have a discernible effect in baseball, then that effect must be on power, and only on power.”

At this point, he probably has lost half his audience. I am no expert in logic, but I thought you couldn’t use a conclusion as your premise. I am sure this violates some logical rule. If this is a thesis statement, it comes across as too certain. What about pitchers? Increased muscularity would certainly add a few MPH to a pitcher’s fastball. 

To measure raw-power, Eric uses a metric called Power Factor, which is Total Bases per Hit. I think isolated power would have been a more intuitive choice. I guess both metrics would measure the same thing, but I think isolated power is a more familiar metric.

He then presents charts showing the historical changes in power factor. His historical analysis of the different trends in power, and the explanations he gives about the construction of the baseballs is a joy to read. I had no idea that MLB switched baseball manufacturers in 1977 from Spalding to Rawlings. And this really does coincide with a slight increase in power from the previously used Spalding baseballs. He also cites research showing that modern baseballs have more “bounce” in them.

Eric then presents charts where the points where new baseballs were introduced are smoothed-out. He removed the external noise that could be introduced into this study if one simply assumed that the baseball had never changed. However, I think he did a little too much smoothing, sort of like using too much regression. The large jump in power that occurred in 1993 is completely smoothed out. Eric actually shows a downward trend from that of 1992. This doesn’t make any sense at all? Expansion years always lead to an increase in power. What about the thin-air of Mile High Stadium? These are obvious external variables that would have an impact on power factor, but he doesn’t say how he accounts for these variables. And if he did, then the slight downward trend would drop off the charts. I find it hard to believe that the only reason for this downward spike was the introduction of a juiced-ball. I think “The boost just isn’t there”, because he completely smoothed it out. At this point, I think it would be pointless for me to comment anymore since I don’t understand exactly what he did here.

I will read the rest of the article tomorrow. He really should of split this article into 4 or 5 different articles. It would be a bit easier to digest in smaller segments.


#62    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 06:09

Brian, he certainly concedes (I think) that it is theoretically possible that pitchers and hitters who took PED’s and both saw an increase in performance levels could cancel one another out, however....

He says that it is virtually impossible for that to happen, for two reasons, both of which are conclusory, I think.  They are:

One, if it is true that PED’s can enhance pitcher and batter performance, the chance of both occurring at about the same level is near zero.  This would be a spectacular, miraculous occurrence, if I may paraphrase him.  I am not sure why.  As I said, it does not have to be a prefect match.  If PED’s did in fact affect both pitchers and batters in a similar fashion and if around the same proportion of pitchers and hitters were taking them over the long run (not in any given year), then we would expect to see around a zero net result.  Other than variance that is, as Brian explains.  I had not thought of that.  If there indeed was an increase in variance that was not explained by expansion, then that would need to explained by Eric or someone else.  And again, the canceling effect of hitter and batter enhanced performance does not have to be exactly “par” for us to see no net increase or decrease in runs or PF over 10 or 20 years.  There is so much noise and other influences that anything close, in terms of pitcher and batters use and effect could cause no discernible net change in 10 or 20 years.  Is than exact scenario unlikely?  Of course it is!  However it is not zero (or very close) as Eric says it is.  And it is one of several scenarios that can exist of PED use did enhance batters and/or pitchers, and if we add all of them up, I am sure we are well above the “de minimus” range.

Eric flat out tells us that there is exactly zero scientific evidence for PED use enhancing performance in baseball players, so that sort of ends the discussion anyway.  And that can be his rebuttal for any claim whatsoever.  So I don’t see any discussion with him going further than that. I am pretty sure there are lots of medical and scientific studies that DO show that use of PED’s can and does increase athletic performance, however I am not qualified to critique them of course, not being a doctor or physiologist or chemist or whatever it takes to do that.  In fact, I know for a fact that there are such studies because I just read about them in the Tobin article that Dr. Nathan links above.  In one of the controlled studies that Tobin cites, it was shown that weightlifters (I think) showed increased strength and endurance while taking a certain amount of a certain kind of steroids over a certain period of time.  Dr. Tobin and Dr. Nathan tell us that increased strength and muscularity is likely to lead to increased bat speed which is likely to lead to increased power in baseball.

I am pretty sure there are no controlled experiments using baseball players, but is it difficult to extrapolate one or more of the studies that have been done to baseball players? I don’t think so.  That is exactly what the Tobin article does.

Now, I am not sure by any means that PED use leads to increase performance in baseball by pitchers or hitters.  I suspect it does, at least by some of them, depending on what they were taking, how much, for how long, and what kind of physical regimen they were on at the same time. I also have no idea what percentage of pitchers or hitters were taking and doing enough of whatever it would take to enhance their performance.  10%? 30%? 5%? 40%?  I have no idea.

My initial and only point was that I found Eric’s thesis that the evidence is incontrovertable that:

“Since there has been no net gain in PF or rpg over the last 30 years or so (which is a questionable assumption, but I’ll grant him that), and since there is no evidence in the medical and scientific literature that PED’s do anything for athletes, that PED use or not in baseball can and did have no effect in baseball performance all other things being equal...”

to be preposterous.  I also found his logic and arguments to be frightfully poor, as I have explained ad nauseum.  What terps said above was the very first thing I said when I started this thread.

Right away, Eric takes a dogmatic tone: “If PED’s have a discernible effect in baseball, then that effect must be on power, and only on power.”

Dogmatic tone? How about it is a preposterous statement.  Is there anyone with half a brain that thinks that it is IMPOSSIBLE for steroid use to have ANY OTHER effect other than on power and power alone?


#63    Greg Rybarczyk      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 12:29

I also think his creation of “Power Factor” is not ideal.  From the early returns on our project, MGL, approximately 50% of all doubles are not hit close to the outfield fence, and 45% of all triples are not hit close to the outfield fence.  These extra base hits must therefore be the ones that are hit down the lines and up the gaps, but not deep, i.e. these are not heavily influenced by power. 

Walker also says: 

“...and there is no wiggle room for nonsense about speed for doubles and triples having any consequence to the PF’s utility...”

Well, if only about half of all doubles and triples are hit near the outfield fence, I’m willing to go out on a limb and say that the remainder are at least somewhat influenced by speed.

So, it makes more sense for an analysis on PED’s to focus on the extra base hit that is invariably influenced by power - the home run. 

If analysis and making sense are what one’s after, that is.


#64    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 12:29

Again, I have only read the first part of the article. It looks like the quality of the article gets better after this part. I will probably skip the section on physics. I am more interested in the parts of the article where he discusses the medical effects of PED’s.


#65    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/21 (Sat) @ 15:04

I’m not sure I would quibble about what factor to look at - HR, PF, total bases, ISO, rpg, etc. However, personally, I would look at everything to try and get as “wide” a picture as possible, and then go from there.  That is one of the problems with being so certain about everything before and during your analysis - you tend to have a narrow focus and can end up easily overlooking something important.  It is good to sometimes have a firm hypothesis before engaging in this kind of research in order to be more focused, however, one has to be careful to avoid confirmation bias.

And BTW, just because a double or triple is not hit near the fence does not mean that it was not hit hard.  A certain proportion of D and T are by virtue of distance, a certain proportion are by virtue of the speed and trajectory of the ball, but not necessarily distance, and foot speed obviously is a factor in all of them that could be a single or double or could be a double or triple.


#66    Rally      (see all posts) 2009/03/22 (Sun) @ 01:44

If steroids affect power and power alone, can somebody tell me what Ben Johnson was thinking when he got busted in the Olympics?

And then the first MLB player to get busted was a one tool speedster, Alex Sanchez.

As for Bonds, I don’t know what people are using for power factor.  I’m looking at HR per contacted ball.  His 2001 is off the charts (.191) but his 2002-2004 numbers (.129-.136) are well above his 93-94 peak (.100-.106)


#67    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/22 (Sun) @ 03:47

Before I continue criticizing Eric’s work, let me state that I think he is a good writer. But I do think that he jumps to conclusions too quickly. For instance, he had a preconceived idea that the only measurable effect of PED use is an increase in batting power. He doesn’t challenge this idea. Then, he only presents evidence that supports this claim. MGL said that this was a confirmation bias. This was the term I was looking for when I said his argument wasn’t logical.

Rally points out another problem with his study. Eric throws all players into one pool. This could be one of the reasons why his graphs don’t show any increase in power during years where power greatly increased, like the year 1993.


#68    Roger Tobin      (see all posts) 2009/03/24 (Tue) @ 11:13

I’m not sure this thread really needs any more Eric-Walker-bashing, but since he specifically attacks my work (mentioned in some of the earlier posts), I’ll add some comments about the basis of his criticism, namely his contention that steroids primarily increase upper-body strength, with minimal effect on the lower body.

He backs up that claim with a bunch of short quotes ( http://www.steroids-and-baseball.com/medical-effects.shtml#DISTRIBUTION). I’ve looked up most of them , and in context they are brief qualitative statements, not supported by data, and one of them is just fabricated (see below).  None suggest that the effects on lower-body muscle are negligible, provide even the roughest quantitative estimate of how great the differential effect might be, or suggest that it is as large as the factor of 3-4 that Walker assumes.

The only reliable source I’m aware of with actual relevant data is the paper by Bhasin et al. [NEJM 335:1 (1996)].  Walker’s quote from that paper, “[S]teroids increase muscle mass and upper-body strength …”, is wrong, distorted and contradicted by the data, as anyone can verify.  The relevant sentence reads:  “Anabolic-androgenic steroids are widely abused by athletes and recreational bodybuilders because of the perception that these substances increase muscle mass and strength.” The sentence, in the first place, is about perception rather than fact, and in the second place says nothing about “upper-body” strength.  (The phrase “upper-body” does not appear anywhere in the paper.) (BTW, I pointed this out to Walker last summer, but the quote is still there.)

More important, the data of Bhasin et al. (Table 4) show that for the testosterone+exercise group, both triceps area and quadriceps area increased by 14%, while bench press strength and squatting strength increased by 23% and 37% respectively.  Friedl, in his chapter in “Anabolic Steroids in Sport and Exercise”, 2nd ed., which Walker quotes twice, acknowledges that the Bhasin data show lower-body strength gains comparable to upper-body gains and presents no contradictory studies. 

Now, it’s no doubt true that at some level different muscle groups respond differently to steroids.  But the evidence indicates that the differences are small.


#69    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/24 (Tue) @ 11:47

Above post was marked for moderation and is now open.


#70    Matt Lentzner      (see all posts) 2009/03/24 (Tue) @ 19:44

Rally said:

If steroids affect power and power alone, can somebody tell me what Ben Johnson was thinking when he got busted in the Olympics?

And then the first MLB player to get busted was a one tool speedster, Alex Sanchez.

...
_________________________________________________

Rally, you’re conflating power as a baseball tool and power as a physical property of the human body. Sprinting is absolutely a power sport. The athlete is trying to supply the required work to propel his body 100m in the shortest amount of time. Power is work/time.

Likewise, in hitting, the player is trying to get his bat going as fast as possible in as short a time as possible for a given swing length - a quick bat. The principle is the same. The only difference is the application and how the ability is trained for. Obviously, if your swinging a bat of fixed mass then a more muscular body is better, while a sprinter has to move those muscles along with the rest of his body mass to the finish line. For sprinting there’s a point of diminishing returns on those muscles. There’s probably that point for hitting also, but it is most likely at the far end of freakish. Even so, take a look at sprinters. They look a lot more like football players (some are) than distance runners.

The idea that steroids would affect only certain muscles seems pretty suspect to me. And maybe I misunderstood your point, Rally. If it truly only affected upper body power then there would be no reason for a sprinter to take them. Regardless, I think Ted Williams would disagree that hitting a baseball is purely an upper body activity.


#71    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/24 (Tue) @ 22:25

Roger, thank you for stopping by and for pointing out the fact that Eric appears to be misquoting and misrepresenting studies and in your own words, fabricating things.

As I suspected, this is not a fair fight.  People can take that any way they want. I have a pretty good nose for B.S., which is why I started this thread in the first place.  I am not afraid to call someone a B.S. artist if that is what I suspect and the evidence continues to point in that direction. I have no idea what Eric’s motivation is, if any, but in this case at least, I think it is becoming increasingly likely that he is a B.S. artist.


#72    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/25 (Wed) @ 03:17

I don’t think Eric is a B.S. artist. I do think he is terribly ignorant about the effects of PED use. This makes his lengthy steroids article unreadable. He does have a skill for twisting logic. The way he plays around with logic is reminiscent of Hegel, a pompous 19th century philosopher.

Anyway, I tried to read the rest of the article. This stood-out:

“Steroids have a markedly greater effect on upper-body strength than on lower-body strength.

Batting is almost exclusively powered by lower-body strength.

Beefcake doesn’t drive long balls.”

Look at a professional body-builder. They have tree-trunks for legs. Clean body-builders and clean competitions do exist. However, the prominent competitions are littered with steroid users.  If you want to do well in a prominent body-building competition, you have to use steroids. What about the sprinters who have been caught using steroids? Sprinters wouldn’t use steroids if they only increased upper-body strength.

The medical part of the article is a joke. Eric pretty much minimizes the side effects of these drugs. He only cites studies where PED use was shown to have minimal side-effects. This is socially irresponsible. Someone who is tempted to use steroids, but has refrained because they are scared of the possible side-effects, could stumble upon Eric’s article and get the idea that using steroids is no more harmful than drinking a cup of coffee.


#73    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/25 (Wed) @ 04:31

terps, you pretty much pan the entire article, and you are probably justified in doing so.  Now, it is just a word, but why do you not think he is a B.S. artist?  You don’t need to answer that. I don’t think he is misrepresenting and fabricating facts and ideas deliberately and with an agenda (maybe he is). I think that he thinks that his position is justified and that his article is excellent and a fantastic piece of descriptive research.  That makes him a B.S. artist or whatever you want to call it, in my book.  Or just another revisionist or scam artist, or any number of names you can call it.  There are no shortage of people like that in this world.  Which is a shame as he seems like a really intelligent guy.


#74    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/25 (Wed) @ 05:15

I agree MGL. This is a perfect example of charlatanism. On the subject of PED use, Eric is definitely an “unparalleled scribbler of nonsense.” The quote is from Arthur Schopenhauer.


#75    Rally      (see all posts) 2009/03/25 (Wed) @ 09:22

"The idea that steroids would affect only certain muscles seems pretty suspect to me. And maybe I misunderstood your point, Rally.”

Matt,

I think we’re on the same page here.  Eric is the one who said:

“In baseball terms, that means power--the distance balls are hit. If PEDs have a discernible effect in baseball, then that effect must be on power, and only on power.”

I find that hard to believe, as steroids are used by basestealers and sprinters.


#76    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/25 (Wed) @ 17:18

You could interpret “power” to mean “power to the muscles” which could mean any muscle group - legs, etc.  I don’t think that is what Eric means. I think he means “power” as in hitting the ball farther and harder.  Oh wait, he is very clear about what he means.  He says, “the distance balls are hit.”

In my first post, I pondered the notion that steroids could decrease healing time from injury or allow a player to play when injured where he normally could not or chose not to. It might even be a placebo or psychological effect (something else Eric chooses to ignore).  I can’t see how that can be ruled out 100%. If it is not (ruled out), then the statement “the effect must be on power and power only” has to be false.  And in case one wants to argue that allowing players to play while injured (when without steroids, they would not be playing) or allowing players to heal faster, is not “performance enhancing,” well, we are talking semantics, but since the effect of one or both those things would be to increase counting stats if nothing else, I think that would qualify as “performance enhancing.” I think we are beating a dead horse here.

There are two kinds of arguments and studies with respect to a complex and controversial issue:

One which starts with a certain conclusion (of course the author or purveyor is NOT going to say that he started with the conclusion, but that he “weighed all the facts and evidence and came to that conclusion afterward") and then gives lots of evidence to support that conclusion, and in passing eschews a few points from the other side.  Occasionally (or perhaps more than occasionally) these types of arguments and people who purvey them misrepresent, fabricate, lie, or mislead the reader/listener with regard to evidence for and against, especially against.

The other researches all the facts and evidence for and against, with no bias (or at least as little bias as possible) and lets the reader decide or objectively and dispassionately comes up with a conclusion themselves.  Sometimes that conclusion does not have a large degree of certainty.  In many controversial cases, it SHOULD not have a large degree of certainty (remember that “certainty is the province of the ignorant).  As I said in one of my posts, be wary of any person or argument that takes a controversial, complex subject and comes up with an iron-clad conclusion.

One of the above is science and the other is not.  As I said, there is no shortage in this world of the first kind.  Every pseudo-scientific (which is a generous term in many cases) thing you see in books, on late night TV, the radio, the internet, etc., falls into that category.


#77    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/26 (Thu) @ 02:44

I see nothing wrong with calling Eric’s article psuedo-science. Any study that has the appearance of a scientific study, but does not conform to the scientific method, can be called psuedo-scientific. 

I think this statement from Wikipedia’s page on psuedo-science best summarizes our thoughts on Eric’s article:

“Pseudosciences have been characterised by the use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims, over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation, lack of openness to testing by other experts, and a lack of progress in theory development.”


#78    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/03/26 (Thu) @ 14:28

Alan’s paper and discussion have been moved to here:
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/alan_nathans_hr_paper/


#79    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/29 (Sun) @ 04:57

Here are some cherry-picked statements from Tom House on the topic of PED use during the 60’s and 70’s. House was a relief pitcher for the Atlanta Braves (1971-1975), Red Sox (1976-1977), and Seattle Mariners (1977-1978).

“I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn’t give to horses. That was the ‘60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There’s a lot more research and understanding.”

“We didn’t get beat, we got out-milligrammed. And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them.”

“I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball and it still didn’t go faster than 82 miles per hour. I was a failed experiment.”

“As an instructor, I’m about as anti-steroid as you can be, not through research but through first-hand knowledge. I try to aim people toward research and make it clear it’s an unacceptable choice. It’s OK to ask questions, but it’s not OK to experiment.”

“So I tried it. Steroids were easy to get—this was California in the ‘60s. It was before sharing needles was a problem. It was inexpensive: $40 to $80 depending on how many shots and how long you wanted to stay with it. I think the most I ever spent in a given winter was probably around $400.”

House sounds like a credible man who has learned from his mistakes. Although, I do not believe some of his statements, like 6 or 7 pitchers per team were using steroids during his playing days.


#80    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/29 (Sun) @ 14:12

Yup, everyone is prone to exaggeration and hyperbole. Who knows.  It is only one man’s opinions and recollections.  Not worth a whole lot.

Given what players looked like in the 60’s and 70’s and the state of offense back then, either hardly anyone was actually using steroids, they were using them wrong, pitchers and hitters offset one another (although that belies what they looked like - skinny), their quality was not good, or Eric is right, and steroids had/have no effect!


#81    Brian Cartwright      (see all posts) 2009/03/29 (Sun) @ 14:20

Random thoughts here - but maybe steroids alone aren’t enough, you have to combine them with lifting or other heavy workouts - and as far I a recall baseball players didn’t do any lifting until the 1990’s.


#82    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/03/29 (Sun) @ 17:03

Brian makes a good point. You will not gain very much muscle mass by steroids alone. Weight-training didn’t become popular in baseball until the 1980’s. So you wouldn’t see very many body-buidler physiques from this time period. Although there were a few players built like body-builders, Steve Garvey for instance.

I know that steroid use was prevalent in the NFL as far back as the early 1970’s. When Johnny Unitas was traded to the San Diego Chargers in 1972, he said that he was shocked to find out how common steroid use was. There are also allegations that some players on the “Steel Curtain” Steelers teams were using steroids. Body-buidling also became infested with steroids during the 1970’s. What makes people think that there was little to no steroid abuse in baseball during the 1970’s and early 1980’s, when there is evidence that steroid use was common in other professional sports during the same time period?


#83    MGL      (see all posts) 2009/03/29 (Sun) @ 18:52

Well, yes, I think the research indicates that steroids have little or no effect without weight training. 

Then again, if players were taking steroids back then, I don’t know of any reason to think that they were not weight training as well.  Yes, it is true that weight training was not nearly as prevalent in those days, but I think that it is also true that steroid use was not nearly as prevalent, despite what Tom House allegedly said.

I will concede that there were probably more players who took steroids back then without weight training.  In the modern era (80’s and beyond), there were probably few if any players who took steroids and did not lift weights.

Honestly, who knows and who cares?  I don’t for both.


#84    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/04/01 (Wed) @ 03:54

Yes, I will finally get off my high-horse about steroid use prior to what is commonly referred to as the steroid era (late 1980’s to 2004).


#85    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/01 (Wed) @ 10:46

I blame Ben Johnson. 

The worst part was when the CBC was interviewing his sister shortly thereafter and she said “No wink in my eye, no doubt in my soul, he did not do it”.  You can tell how emotional and how much she didn’t (want to) believe it.


#86    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/04/01 (Wed) @ 13:33

I beleive 4 out of the top 5 finishers in the 1988 Olympic 100 meter tested positive for PED’s. Although Carl Lewis only tested positive for ephedirine and psuedoephedirine. I still think Track is a dirty sport. The new drug of choice is EPO, which increases the ability of red blood-cells to absorb oxygen.


#87    joe arthur      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 08:10

Terps,
your statement is misleading about the 1988 100 meter race and seems to be based on a tendentious statement in the wikipedia article on Johnson. Only Johnson tested positive and was disqualified in that race. The statement is “true” only if you count detected steroid use by Linford Christie and Dennis Mitchell a decade later at the end of their racing careers, and a dismissed positive test by Lewis months before the 1988 Olympics for small quantities of the stimulants found in over the counter cold medication (and detected in amounts supposedly not rising to the level of performance enhancement).

While EPO does seem to be part of the package of drugs distributed by BALCO to sprinters such as Marion Jones, my understanding is that it has no known actual benefit outside the context of high endurance events (distance running, distance swimming, cycling). It is not yet clear that EPO use is a problem in Track beyond outside those few events ...

I’m not sure what Tango means in #85 by “I blame Ben Johnson.” There were many vectors for bringing steroids into baseball, as others have noted; the significance of Johnson was that in testimony in 1989 it became clear that his rise from obscurity to world record setter was steroid-fueled and that he had beaten the testing system for years, winning the 1987 world championship in world record time while using but without testing positive. But since testing was a non-issue in baseball for many years, I assume that is irrelevant…


#88    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 10:03

I think what Ben Johnson showed is not that you can beat the test, but that his particular recipe had such spectacular benefits on his legs.

I think most lay people, prior to that, would think of steroids in context to weightlifting, while probably be an impediment to agility and speed.


#89    terpsfan101      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 12:47

Yes Joe, my statement that 4 out of the 5 top finishers tested positive was misleading. I should of said 4 out of the 5 tested positive at some point during their careers.


#90    joe arthur      (see all posts) 2009/04/02 (Thu) @ 14:18

Tom,
you may well be right about what lay people thought in 1988, but to me it seemed that your remark was in context of a discussion which otherwise was about the increased use of steroids in baseball, and in that context I am reacting to your use of the word “blame”. Apparently you meant it differently.

As an historical note, Canseco was well on his way to MLB’s first 40/40 season in 1988 before before Johnson’s positive test at the end of September, and crossover football player Bo Jackson [and within a couple of years Deion Sanders] also showed that speed and some bulk could co-exist in a baseball uniform. Not that either of these football players was a known steroid user, but merely that the NFL was already suspected of being full of steroid users - its players had gotten bigger and faster over the prior 15-20 years. So within baseball there were other more immediately relevant examples than Johnson showing that “big” could go along with fast.

Also [to get back on the main track of this thread] the paper by Bhasin et al. mentioned by Roger Tobin in comment #68 is available online [search the New England Journal of Medicine archive with the reference Tobin provided]; their study had 4 groups comprising with and without testosterone and with and without exercise. Their finding was that the tested performance of the “with PED/without exercise” group was comparable to the performance of the “without PED/with exercise group”. Whether that is a repeatable finding or not, it contradicts the speculation in comments 81-83 ... and I’ll confirm what Tobin said - that the quote Walker attributes to that article not only does not appear in it, it woul be completely undercut by the content of the article.


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