THE BOOK cover
The Unwritten Book is Finally Written!
An in-depth analysis of: The sacrifice bunt, batter/pitcher matchups, the intentional base on balls, optimizing a batting lineup, hot and cold streaks, clutch performance, platooning strategies, and much more.
Read Excerpts & Customer Reviews
If you are a media member and would like a review copy of The Book, please contact Kevin Cuddihy of Potomac Books.

Buy The Book from Amazon

MOST RECENT ARTICLES
MAIL : You ask | We say

Advanced


THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

<< Back to main

Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Does PAP work?

By Tangotiger, 05:25 PM

Beats me.  I did a mini-test.  I started off with the PAP at BP’s site.

I selected the 90 pitchers with the most pitches thrown in 2005, reasoning that these pitchers would reasonably be expected to be pitching in 2006 based purely on talent.  From those 90 pitchers, I selected the 30 pitchers with the most “stress” (defined by BP as PAP points divided by pitches thrown), and the 30 pitchers with the lowest stress, and the 30 middle pitchers.

I was interested to see how many pitches each group threw in 2006. 


The 30 highly stressed pitchers in 2005 threw 3325 pitches in 2005 (on 32.4 starts), and followed that with 2961 pitches in 2006, or an 11% drop.  The 30 least-stressed pitchers in 2005 threw 2984 pitches (on 32.0 starts), and followed that up with 2176 pitches, or a 27% drop!  Ouch.  Sounds like we want our pitchers stressed.

Maybe there’s some quality check that we can do here.  Maybe the guys who are being stressed are also the better pitchers.  Let’s redo, but this time only look at the top 60 pitchers in pitch counts.  This time, the high-stressed pitchers averaged 3400 pitches on 32.7 starts, and followed that up with 3100 pitches in 2006.  The low-stressed pitchers averaged 3150 pitches on 33.1 starts, and ended up with 2368 pitches in 2006.  Once again, the more stressed, the better.

Let’s repeat by selecting pitchers in 2006, and seeing how they did in 2007.  The 30 high-stressed pitchers of 2006 averaged 3256 pitches on 31.8 starts, and ended up with 2866 pitches in 2007.  That’s a 12% drop.  And the 30 low-stressed pitchers of 2006 averaged 2923 pitches on 31.0 starts, and ended up with 2255 pitches, or a drop of 23%.

Repeating with only the top 60 pitchers in pitch counts, instead of 90: top 20 stressed pitchers had 3271 pitches on 31.7 starts in 2006, followed by 3002 pitches in 2007.  The 20 least-stressed pitchers had 2982 pitches on 31.3 starts and followed that up with 2267 pitches.

After I did all that, I looked at the pitchers and saw “Cory Lidle” and “Brad Radke”.  To exclude pitchers like that, I put in a requirement of at least 1 pitch thrown in the subsequent season.  This will of course remove pitchers who were genuinely hurt all season, but someone else can pick up the slack here.

Anyway, repeating all that work, here are the results:

2006 pitchers, n=90
high-stress NP=3256, GS=31.8, in 2007 NP=2866, 12% drop
low-stress NP=2920, GS=30.9, in 2007 NP=2393, 18% drop

2005 pitchers, n=90
high-stress NP=3325, GS=32.4, in 2006 NP=2961, 11% drop
low-stress NP=2969, GS=31.9, in 2006 NP=2280, 23% drop

2006 pitchers, n=60
high-stress NP=3430, GS=33.0, in 2007 NP=3062, 11% drop
low-stress NP=3189, GS=32.7, in 2007 NP=2701, 15% drop

2005 pitchers, n=60
high-stress NP=3400, GS=32.7, in 2007 NP=3100, 9% drop
low-stress NP=3144, GS=33.0, in 2007 NP=2429, 23% drop

The last two charts I prefer, as they are with n=60 (60 top pitchers in pitch counts).  There should be very little quality seepage here.  If you are throwing at least 3000 pitches in a season (the rough baseline), you’ve got to be considered a good pitcher.

Anyway, if you remember in my Buehrle/Santana discussion, I said top pitchers in their late 20s, THROUGHOUT HISTORY, will lose about 10% of their IP per year into their 30s.  And this is without account for any “stress” activity.  And the above charts, when focusing on “stressed” pitchers, also show a 10% drop.

Even if you want to argue that the low-stress pitchers include alot of subpar pitchers (remember, there’s only 60 starters in the group, meaning that you think that their team will allow them to be one of the top 2 starters on their team, and that the next year NO team would think that they were one of the top 150 starters), and want to disregard the 15% and 20% drops, what are you going to argue as the control?  That the high-stressed pitchers should have only lost 5% of their pitch counts, but the “stress” caused them to lose 10%?  But, as I’ve shown, we should expect the average top pitcher, at any point in history, to lose 10%.

It seems to me that this stress business is not what it’s all about.  Does PAP work?  I don’t know that it does.  But, it’s not for me to prove that it doesn’t work.  It’s up to someone else to prove that it does work.  And so far, I don’t see it.

#1    Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 19:08

The top 30 pitchers had an ERA of 3.53; the 61-90 pitchers had an ERA of 4.63.  The middle 30 were at 3.95.  So the quality leekage may be an issue. 

It seems that we should control for both pitcher quality and pitcher age, and determine how many innings we would “expect” from each pitcher the following season.  Does Marcel do this?  We may find that “stressed” pitchers underperform their Marcel IP more than the “non-stressed” (not that I think this would happen, actually).

Interestingly, the top 30 pitchers don’t just throw more pitches because they’re better.  The top 30 also averaged 3.78 pitches per batter faced, the middle group 3.69, the bottom 30 3.62.  This is probably because the top group K’s more batters—19.5% of total batters faced, where the middle group’s at 16.5% and the bottom at 13.5%.  (The top group also walked a bit more, 7.2% to 6.8% to 6.7%.)

The pitches per inning is somewhat interesting.  The top group averaged 15.76, the middle 15.56, the bottom 15.65.  If we assume that managers start to mull over pulling their SP at the 100-pitch mark, we would expect the top group to hit that mark after 6.35 innings, the middle after 6.43, and the bottom after 6.39.  In actuality, the top group averaged 6.60 innings per game, the middle 6.26, the bottom 5.82.  (A few of the pitchers had some relief appearances, I don’t know if that’s throwing things off.) The bottom 30 were on a really short leash with their managers, apparently.


#2    Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 19:11

The top 30 pitchers had an ERA of 3.53; the 61-90 pitchers had an ERA of 4.63.

I should clarify that these are the Top 90 by pitches thrown, not by PAP.


#3    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 19:18

Good stuff. 

I am shocked that there is that much of a difference.

However, if we focus only on the top 60 pitchers, how do the top, middle, bottom 20 break down?


#4    Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 19:33

Whoops, that was actually pitches per game, not total pitches.

Anyway, by total pitches:

ERA,P/BF,P/IP,K/BF,BB/BF
Top 30:  3.65,3.73,15.56,.184,.068
Mid 30:  4.02,3.68,15.55,.160,.070
Bot 30:  4.46,3.69,15.91,.152,.069

The quality issue is still there, though not as extreme.  Pitchers per batter are pretty stable, with the top 30 striking out some more guys, and thus throwing more pitches.

Breaking down the Top 60:

ERA,P/BF,P/IP,K/BF,BB/BF
Top 20:  3.61,3.75,15.62,.188,.069
Mid 20:  3.70,3.70,15.47,.168,.067
Bot 20:  4.20,3.66,15.56,.159,.072

Out of the top 20, the worst pitcher (by unadjusted ERA) was Jeff Weaver (4.22).  The worst in the middle group was Mike Maroth (4.74).  The bottom 20 had some real winners:  Kip Wells (5.09), Jeff Francis (5.68—Coors), and Eric Milton (6.47).


#5    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 19:37

Oh, I see.  You said pitches thrown, not PAP/pitch.  Certainly not the same group.  I doubt you’ll see anything close to that difference if you did it by Stress.

***

When I take the pitchers by total pitches thrown in 2005+2006 (min 5600 pitches), that gives me 59 pitchers.  The 20 most stressed threw 2946 in 2007, and the 20 least stressed averaged 2393.

Limiting it to those pitchers with at least 6000 pitches (47 pitchers), the top and bottom 16 threw in 2007: 2837, 2642.  The average in 2005/06 was 3455, 3178.

That gives the dropoff of 18% and 17%, respectively.  That is, NO DIFFERENCE.

I think this last one really hits the nail on the head here.  Throwing 6000 pitches over 2 season is done by only 47 pitchers.  Basically, the elites, the guys who must be good quality pitchers.

The guys who didn’t pitch much in 2007: Carpenter (Average stress), Myers (high stress, but was a reliever), Schmidt (high stress), RJ (high stress), KEnny Rogers (low stress).

I really don’t think that stress tells us anything about injuries.  I think it’s a good number to have, just to have, in terms of pitcher usage.  But, otherwise, I don’t think you’ll get anything out of it.


#6    david smyth      (see all posts) 2008/01/23 (Wed) @ 22:03

Didn’t S Mejdal find, in his injury research, that the best predictor of future injuries is past injuries, and that any measure of workload works about the same as a predictor (IP, or pitches thrown, or PAP)?

It seems like nowadays, with managers and teams being very aware of workload, and being more judicious about which pitchers they give higher workloads to (eg. C Zambrano, a big guy with a strong arm, a “horse"), the workload component to injuries should be getting smaller, compared to the intrinsic genetics and mechanics components. And how much is it possible to change a pro pitcher’s mechanics?


#7          (see all posts) 2008/01/24 (Thu) @ 01:18

I would be much more interested in whether high PAP led to a dropoff in quality, not pitching time.  Wasn’t that the main point of PAP in the first place?

Even if you are looking at reduction in pitches thrown, or pitching time (not necessarily the same thing of course), you MUST control for quality!  Without doing that, the results are useless.  For any group of pitchers, the better the quality, the more they will throw in the subsequent year.  No matter how you break down pitchers into groups (PAP, or whatever), the group with the higher ERA in year X will ALWAYS see a lesser reduction in IP in year X+1. If you want to look at how somethin else besides quality affects dropoff in playing time, you HAVE to control for quality.  So, Tango, with all due respect, your initial numbers tell me NOTHING without telling me the ERA of the high and low stress pitchers in year X.

Even when you do this:

Limiting it to those pitchers with at least 6000 pitches (47 pitchers), the top and bottom 16 threw in 2007: 2837, 2642.  The average in 2005/06 was 3455, 3178.

That gives the dropoff of 18% and 17%, respectively.  That is, NO DIFFERENCE.

It still tells me NOTHING unless you tell me the ERA of each group in year X (and again in year X+1) since we want to see if the high stressed group suffers a drop in performance, as compared to the low stressed group.

Didn’t the authors of PAP (Rany?) already show that it works pretty well, at least as far as dropoff in quality?  (Again, I don’t think they talked about dropoff in pitching time at all.) Isn’t that how they derived the formula in the first place (that a pitcher’s future performance seemed to drop off as a fucntion of the cube of some kind of pitch count index)?

Also, can you at least print the PAP formula you used so we have some idea what you are doing?


#8    tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/24 (Thu) @ 08:22

I didn’t use any PAP formula. IF you follow the link to BP, they give you the PAP numbers.  Stress is PAP/pitches.

I wouldn’t say “nothing” about the 47 pitchers.  The top 47 pitchers in pitches thrown, if ordered by stress, would certainly have a somewhat similar (random) ERA.

But, maybe someone else can pick up the slack here.


#9    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/24 (Thu) @ 10:13

I should point out that I only looked at half the equation: drop off in quantity.  Drop off in quality is another thing, as mgl points out.


#10    MGL      (see all posts) 2008/01/24 (Thu) @ 17:47

I’ll have to re-read your initial post.  Yes, you would think that if you ordered or grouped pitchers by stress (as determined by some PAP formula), that the quality (ERA) would be random.  In which case, any difference in IP (or pitches thrown) the next year might be telling.  However, you still need to control for ERA or quality just the same, just in case, PAP/pitch is somehow related to quality.


#11    obsessivegiantscompulsive      (see all posts) 2008/01/28 (Mon) @ 14:32

"The pitches per inning is somewhat interesting.  The top group averaged 15.76, the middle 15.56, the bottom 15.65.  If we assume that managers start to mull over pulling their SP at the 100-pitch mark, we would expect the top group to hit that mark after 6.35 innings, the middle after 6.43, and the bottom after 6.39.  In actuality, the top group averaged 6.60 innings per game, the middle 6.26, the bottom 5.82.  (A few of the pitchers had some relief appearances, I don’t know if that’s throwing things off.) The bottom 30 were on a really short leash with their managers, apparently. “

Isn’t the number of innings related to how good the pitchers are?  As you noted, the ERA rises with each group you go down to.  So even if the number of pitches per inning is the same, because they are giving up more hits/runs and getting less outs (hence the higher ERA), they pitch less innings.

Kind of off-topic, but related to the overall topic of decline related to over usage, there is a book by John Burnson, “Graphical Player” where he has a graph for pitchers.  There is a nice one that shows total # of pitches in a season thrown, plus his proprietary metric of value.  Unscientific, but perhaps someone here has the time or access to the data, I noticed that when a pitcher crosses the 3,500 pitches threshold in a season, there was usually a decline in value, either that season or the next season (and maybe the season after that, as I said, not scientific), whether from injury or poor performance.  Didn’t work for Clemens or The Big Unit, but from a curious book reader’s viewpoint, that’s what I noticed for most other pitchers. 

I’m not aware of any study covering pitches thrown in a season, so I thought I would mention this observation of mine and see if anyone can illuminate me with more info or a link or a “don’t be rediculous!” answer.


#12    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/01/28 (Mon) @ 14:46

I’m leaning toward “rediculous”:

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=126157

Roger Clemens led 1988 in total PAP points (his number was so high, it broke BP; it shows his number in exponential format: 1.25476e+06).  I’ll bet if you go through the list of BFP>=3500, you won’t find any pattern.  Select each year, one at a time.

Furthermore, you do need to control things here.  Any group of players that performed better than average will show a regression toward the mean.  If you want to test your BFP>=3500, select pitchers with BFP between 3000 and 3499 to compare against.  I don’t think you’ll find anything of note.  Which is a good thing to present, by the way.

***

By the way, Rany, a gentleman and scientist, was kind enough to reply to my post.  He didn’t really dispute what I said.  But in true research fashion does want to explore things further.  Which is really all I’ve been saying anyway.


#13    obsessivegiantscompulsive      (see all posts) 2008/01/28 (Mon) @ 19:15

Thanks Tango, I’ll have to take a look at it sometimes, thanks for telling me how to approach the study.

But it wasn’t just a decline of regression, that wouldn’t have been significant to me, it was a pretty steep decline of one sort or another.  But yes, I need a control group to compare against, excellent point.  And probably should separate by age, maybe 29- and 30+?


Page 1 of 1 pages


Name (required)
E-Mail (optional)
Website (optional)

<< Back to main


Latest...

COMMENTS

Jan 08 04:25
Sabermetric Moves of the 2009 Pre-Season

Jan 08 15:58
Madoff’s Ponzi

Jan 08 15:42
Hardball Times Annual 2008, starring…

Jan 08 15:35
Clint Eastwood is Archie Bunker

Jan 08 15:29
Line Drives

Jan 08 03:41
Valuing relievers

Jan 07 17:41
The latest in park factors

Jan 06 21:23
Coaching your son, or against him?

Jan 06 11:04
Dual Positions, using bUZR

Jan 05 23:05
Cheers