THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball

I don’t follow; the NFL had ad re-vote when it out that Brian Cushing failed a PED test.  Or is the double standard that Braun won’t win a re-vote, and Cushing did?

At this point, I don’t know what’s more annoying: the double standard (which is very understandable if you understand the way fans view the two sports) or anti-NFL people bringing up the double standard.

This shows the danger of being too general. Saying the “sports media” has a double standard ignores the fact that the writers most intimately involved with a sport--the bet writers--don’t cover both sports.

For baseball writers--and baseball fans--to take steroid use more seriously then football writers and fans is not a double standard; it’s comparing apples and oranges.

Dana/2 - It’s not just the media. It’s the fans too. Many of the fans of MLB are also fans of NFL yet there is significantly less moral outrage when an NFL player tests positive. More NFL players use the drugs, but if you google football steroids and baseball steroids you get more than a million more search hits for baseball steroids. This is despite there being considerably more fans of football. When a minor leaguer tests positive it gets almost as much coverage as an NFL player. The NFL sports writers would write about it the fans cared. You can’t tell me that the MLB sportswriters actually care about this stuff. After all, how many of them knew and said nothing at all until it was of benefit to them? They care only because the fans care and they want to get readers.

While Dana is certainly correct in pointing out that the same writers aren’t voting for NFL and MLB awards, the shrugging of shoulders by their NFL counterparts is reflected by the response of the sports media that do cover both sports.  Almost every yapper without exception on every ESPN sports blabbing show will have a meltdown over Ryan Braun and be foaming at the mouth to have his MVP award stripped.

Ken Davidoff has a piece up on Ryan Braun. I thought the following excerpt was fantastic, and I think it gets at why people apply different standards:

Now let’s discuss one of my least favorite words: Tarnish.
This drug-test tarnishes Braun and his MVP campaign. Baseball has been on such a good run, and now it’s tarnished.

As the late Nell Carter used to sing, Gimme a Break.

You can tarnish something only if you think it’s polished. If you view a baseball season with open eyes and an open mind, then you won’t freak out when something like this happens.

Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines. Does that “tarnish” his career home run total of 755 home runs? No. We view it as a holy number. Same as Willie Mays’ 660 home runs, which were allegedly accomplished with the help of “red juice.”

If you take the emotion out of it, then numbers are what they are. There’s no tarnish, no polish, no nuthin.’ They’re just statistics, and every stat has a backstory.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ken-davidoff-s-baseball-insider-1.1278117/more-on-ryan-braun-1.3382045

There’s a few key differences.

1. PEDs in baseball is still a relatively new thing. Football had its big steroid stuff decades ago with Alzado, Gastineau, Bozworth, etc.

2. Quite a few of baseball’s biggest names have tested positive for steroids, have admitted use, or have been linked to steroids.

3. Baseball’s biggest records have fallen with the influence of steroids. These records are held dear to baseball and their fans.

4. The issue is heightened more with HoF consideration in baseball, and that’s an ongoing issue.

Now had Emmitt Smith admitted that he unknowingly used steroids to achieve a few 2500 yard seasons and a 3000 yard season to pass Walter Payton or had Farve tested positive AND had some historically dominant seasons en route to smashing career records, our view of PEDs and tarnished images in the NFL.

Ryan Braun just won the MVP and tested positive. The NFL had its scenario when Shawn Merriman won DPY while serving a 4-game suspension that year for a positive test. The outcry was present, even led by Jason Taylor who finished second.

In baseball, it’s not just PEDs, but the stars using them. If it were just Cuero testing positive, it probably wouldn’t be a big deal. But it’s been some of the games all-time greats, award winners, and record holders.

If TO, Chris Johnson, and Tom Brady all tested positive while putting up seasons that made Rice, Brown and Sanders, and Montana andElway look like chumps, it’d be a huge deal with the fans, especially the middle-aged variety who would hold these playersas immortal.

There are some key differences between what’s going on in the NFL and MLB. There are likely fans of both sports that think steroids make the game better by giving the fans more of what they want to see ... more speed, more power, and stars on the field for more games at peak levels.

I think the situation of the NFL adding more games to their schedule may create the unintended situation of more players using PEDs just to recover enough to make it through the season.

#6

PED media coverage in baseball might be a new thing, but PED usage in baseball is not. PEDs were used in both baseball and football back then and are used in both sports now.

In connection with your points about stars and history, dynasty teams from the NFL have admitted that most members of certain squads were using (Steelers/Broncos). Since those were the golden years of the NFL, so to speak, it’s arguably worse than current MLB.

Not going to get into specifics here, but the policies are not equal either.

As far as modern stars go, where was the outcry about Deion Sanders? And no, Shawn Merriman’s backlash was limited to mocking, not outright vilification that you see in the MLB.

The basic problem is that football is a physical game and those players are seen as gladiator types. So if they happen to use PEDs or whatever, people are less likely to rage about it. In baseball, the history and the “beauty” of how “the game’s supposed to be played” was being “ruined” by PEDs, hence the outrage.

The basic problem is that football is a physical game and those players are seen as gladiator types. So if they happen to use PEDs or whatever, people are less likely to rage about it. In baseball, the history and the “beauty” of how “the game’s supposed to be played” was being “ruined” by PEDs, hence the outrage.

I agree with that, except for the beauty part. People LOVED the home runs and how the game was more exciting. People threw a shit fit later on when it turned out major records were broken with players using steroids. They were pissed that history was being rewritten by “cheaters”.

Finding out years later that certain players on certain teams in the NFL used steroids isn’t really the same as what is happening in baseball. Not even close. When those years came a decade after Dianabol came on the scene and was referred to by bodybuilders (including one of current governors) as “Muscle Candy”, and non-banned substance ... it doesn’t compare to now.

The way stats and records are cherished in baseball, there’s really no comparison to other sports. I don;t know many fans that are really upset about Canseco’s 40-40 season or Caminiti’s MVP award. Do you?

THAT’s the issue. That Ryan Braun used a banned substance is far lower on people’s meter than Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc.

There are PLENTY of steroid use cases, even award winners, that we don’t get worked up about. Heck, even Palmeiro’s PED use is known more for finger point mockery than real disdain.

With Bonds, well there’s levels of disdain with him and his situation. The most hated superstar in baseball used PEDs to break the most sacred record (both of em). There’s just no comparison to that in other sports.

The players have only added to it with their puppet show in front of congress, and their continual denials, denials, and then admissions when they have nowhere to go (or a story is about to break). The players themselves are treating it as if it’s a huge deal. Football players seem to take the suspension and then come back with a “baby, I’m back”, and guys like Romanowski were brash about it. “Yeah, I did em. F---You.” seems to be the NFL players response.

For all we know, it could just be that taking steroids is associated with lifting weights, and for the 1st 75-100 years of baseball, they didn’t lift weights.

Baseball players spent years in denial and acting as if they’re hiding a murder. You couldn;t get anyone to admit use, until Canseco started ratting people out. Had many of them just came out and said they used it, and everyone else was and it’s no big deal, we’d be over it. But we had to have full on investigations, government involvement, books written, and on and on because the players simply wouldn’t admit it until there was so much evidence and pressure that they had little choice.

IMO, it’s about Bonds, Records, HoF, and the way the player rran and hid from the situation that made it such a big deal in MLB.

Mean Joe Greene uses PEDs (if he did) and who really gives a poop? Except for Cowboy fans, I mean.

I think casual fans loved the homers, but the mainstream media and what not seem to be overjoyed that now baseball as returned to what they believe is a pitcher dominated league. Given that they control the articles and outrage we are discussing, I think that’s more important than what the regular fan thought.

Not sure, I can’t speak for everybody. From my vantage point though, an MVP or Cy Young winner getting caught with PEDs would be met with far greater outrage than a OPOY, DPOY, or MVP in football, especially if that player was not a QB (again, gladiator positions).

I’m not arguing that it’s not about the records, I get that.

I’m just saying if you take similar cases, they are not treated anywhere near the same. Andy Pettite was using HGH and his excuse was injury, he’ll likely never be considering for the HOF at the rate things are going for PED users. Deion Sanders said the same about recovering from an ankle injury and not a peep was made about him being in the HOF.

I understand what you’re saying, but there’s a clear disparity in coverage and reaction.

It’s disingenuous to have this discussion about Cushing without acknowledging a few critical and relevant details:

1) A MAJORITY of the NFL voters who originally picked Cushing for ROY voted for someone else when given the chance to change to their vote.

2) Many (most?) of those who didn’t switch their vote (e.g. Don Banks of SI) stated that the *only* reason they didn’t change their vote was the precedents set by Julius Peppers (2002) and Shawne Merriman (2005) who had previously won the same award in tainted fashion with no re-vote conducted.

Original 2010 ROY vote:
Brian Cushing, Texans 39
Jairus Byrd, Bills 6
Clay Matthews III, Packers 3
Brian Orakpo, Redskins 2
James Laurinaitis, Rams 0

Re-vote:
Brian Cushing, Texans 18
Jairus Byrd, Bills 13
Clay Matthews III, Packers 12
Brian Orakpo, Redskins 3
James Laurinaitis, Rams 1

Am I the only one that’s getting really tired of hearing about Hank Aaron’s amphetamine use because he admitted to trying greenies once and feeling like he was going to have a heart attack because of how fast they made his heart beat? He stated that he never used them again because of how bad they made him feel during that experience.

Is that anything close to the PED use we’re discussing?

I don’t even have the interest in coming up with numerous exaggerated examples of equally ridiculous comparative scenarios, and overkill is usually my specialty.

I’m tired of hearing how pious people are for not having tried what they didn’t have easy access to.

#11, isn’t that also what other players claim, that they only tried it once and there were extenuating circumstances, mislabeled supplements, injury, etc.?  Not that Aaron was forced to defend a positive test, but I think we’ve seen enough denials to be skeptical of any of them.

Setting aside the issue of greenies vs. steroids vs. HGH, I don’t think we have much to go on about the frequency or duration of PED use among admitted users.

Mike Schmidt I think was the most honest when he said he didn’t know what he’d do if he had steroids access.

I think I’ve told the story here before where as an underweight (6’3 155) college pitcher with some attention from pros (84mph as a lefty) and my best friend (and 1st baseman) being a “can’t get stuff” guy, that I had the very real decision to make, in that being 6’3 180 with a coiuple of extra mph could have made a real difference in my future in regards to getting drafted.

I said no to steroids for two reasons (seriously): 1. I knew, at some point, I’d have to be honest with my future kids and tell them how I got drafted, and [2] I didn’t want the acne. Go ahead and laugh, I’m just being honest.

Now, had steroids been the difference between making it to MLB and not, that’s putting me in a situation where my assumption is that I would do PEDs. I don’t necessarily like it that I might make that decision. Getting drafted and playing MiLB is one thing, playing MLB baseball is another.