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Thursday, August 28, 2008

Clay Davenport: replacement-level is…. .350 win%, not .150 win%?

By Tangotiger, 01:02 PM

Great job by Clay in going through a list of the best minor-leaguers over 30.  He concludes that the best nonpitchers would score 3.7 runs per game, and the pitchers would allow 5.0 runs per game (and when you include the slightly below average fielding, all the way up to 5.2 runs per game).  That works out to a .350 win%.

The best team of players who have no hope of playing in MLB would win 35% of the time.  Most analysts have argued that the number is somewhere around the 27% to 35% level.  Clay’s number here is a bit on the high-end, but certainly believable.  I would not be surprised that the players have a selection bias and probably not enough regression, and so, we can see that perhaps they would really score 3.5 runs per game and allow 5.5 runs per game.  That would imply a .300 win%.

Clay’s WARP however presumes a 25-win level for a replacement level team, or a .154 win%.  I hope that Clay may have convinced himself that WARP needs to rethink its position about replacement level, and join the rest of us.  A guy who puts in as much effort and thought in doing the work he does to distribute the work to as many people as he does deserves our respect.  There is a sizable community that takes this WARP stuff seriously, and hopefully Clay can recognize that.

UPDATE: For those who want more of my takedown of WARP, you can read about it here.

UPDATE2: And here.


#1    Colin Wyers      (see all posts) 2008/08/28 (Thu) @ 15:48

Clay’s numbers are probably a shade high because these are the “Replacement Player All-Stars,” if you will. But it’s really hard to swallow the idea that these guys are twice as good as your typical replacement level player, and I hope Clay figures that out.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/28 (Thu) @ 16:02

Don’t forget, these are the All-Stars… over 30.  I’d have set the line at say 27 or 28 years old.  That would give you an even better pool of players, and above the .350 win% level (regression and selection bias notwithstanding).

If we all agree to .300, we can call it a day on this issue.


#3          (see all posts) 2008/08/28 (Thu) @ 19:21

I would hesitate at calling these guys “All-Stars”. because of the selection process. As bext I could tell, Kevin Goldstein perused the raw minor league batting numbers, and picked some guys who caught his eye. Then Clay Davenport went and applied translations and defense to the guys on this list. This is backwards. I don’t know for sure that these are the best, at least by my criteria. I am left to trust Kevin’s judgement (one man’s all-star ballot).

Colin and I wuld have started with a list of translations for all players and their defensive ratings (what Clay did), and then select the best couple at each position (what Kevin did).

If a team wants to make use of the replacement level talent available in the minors, I would hope that they would follow our method.

BTW, I took my incomplete list of age 27+ minor leaguers, and when sorted by BaseRuns per PA, the top two were Nelson Cruz and Josh Phelps, both of whom had their contracts purchased this week.


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2008/08/29 (Fri) @ 13:36

Clay, ever the gentleman, replied.  He recognizes the issue with the low-replacement level in WARP, and at this point, it’s a programming issue, not a philosophical one.  I look forward to whatever changes may be forthcoming.  Therefore, I’ll be happy to call off the dogs on this one, until next season starts.


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