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Monday, February 28, 2011

Batting orders: fix what’s broken

By Tangotiger, 03:12 PM

I agree with Girardi, generally:

No matter who hits where, most analysis says the same thing: unless a manager does something dramatically wrongheaded, like batting his best hitter 9th, most lineup tweaks don’t make much of a difference. From a statistical sense, studies have shown that lineup optimization leads to perhaps one extra win per season.

While a little more production might be squeezed out of his league-leading lineup, Girardi seems conscious that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

“You know you have your middle-of-the-order hitters and then you have your guys who are going to be your supporting cast,” he said. “How we kind of divvy up that supporting cast remains to be seen. But our lineup scored lot of runs last year, a lot of runs last year. And maybe we tweak it and maybe we don’t.”

Not so much his reasoning here, but elsewhere, he said he had to manage them as people and if he moves players around, the players may think something of it.

I agree that because you only gain a couple of runs for each switch you make, that that gain might be eroded if someone is thinking about “does he still love me?  what did I do wrong?  why won’t he call” lineup drama.

It would be great if players simply did not treat the lineup slot as status.  But, perhaps because they DO treat it as status, it gives them more confidence.

And so, teams should play up that the #2 slot in the batting order is very important.  As it stands, it’s treated as “oh, not good enough to be a leadoff hitter and not good enough to be a #5 hitter, eh?”.  And so, it’s self-defeating.


#1    philosofool      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 15:32

I sometimes feel there’s a bit of double think about line up order among Sabermetric types. We’re happy to say that the difference between Martin Prado and Michael young was worth about $4.5 million dollars last year, but then when it comes to line up order, we talk like one win is chump change. Line up order is low cost stuff, and while the difference between Tex and A-Rod as 3/4 or 4/3 is probably too small to quibble over, there are a lot of teams that could squeeze a few runs out of their line up. I think constructing a line up around R/L SP is probably not done enough. (Mostly by moving #2 down and putting more good hitters at the top.)

If I were the manager, I think I would start spring training telling the team that we were going to have more flexible line ups this year, that we were going to build the line up around each batter-pitcher match up, and that we were going to take platoon effects pretty seriously, so part of everyone’s job in spring training is to get used to hitting in different spots in the line up. I’d probably come right out and say “the guy who hits number two has to have a lot of confidence from me, because he’s getting the second most trips to the plate, so if I pencil you in at #2, feel good about yourself.” It seems to me like the manager’s job to make every run count and to get as many runs out of his team as possible.


#2    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 15:57

"I sometimes feel there’s a bit of double think about line up order among Sabermetric types...but then when it comes to line up order, we talk like one win”

I think this is the 2nd time in a week that you’ve cast your paintbrush like this.  From the home page of this site (and in The Book):

Batting Order: If nothing else, we will consider this book a true success if all thirty teams were to never put a below-average hitter in the second spot. While the proper strategy will only gain you a few runs, why do something that is otherwise clearly wrong?

One win is huge.  You can’t ignore that at all.

At the same time, you have to ask: what’s it going to cost me to get that win?  If it’s going to cost you 10MM$, then you don’t buy that win, unless you are sure to get your ROI.

If it’s going to make the team overall unhappier, you need to think long and hard if it’s worth it to make that switch.

These decisions are not done in a vacuum, in a controlled-lab experiment.


#3    MGL      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 16:28

If the manager (and the rest of management) starts with the correct lineup premise and then weighs the costs and benefits in order to maximize ROI, then everything is working fine.  For example, if the manager knows that hitting their best hitter second is ideal on paper and that hitting him 3rd costs 3 runs, but he thinks that him being unhappy in the 2nd hole will cost more than the 3 runs, then everything is fine.

The problem is that managers DON’T know the starting point and therefore they cannot make the correct ROI decisions.  If you don’t know the correct lineups in the first place (and arguably, we don’t know them either - exactly), then justifying your (incorrect) lineup by saying, “Well, if I used another one, so-and-so wouldn’t be happy,” or, “It doesn’t make much difference anyway,” well, that’s not O.K.

So the important thing is to be making decisions using correct information in order to make correct decisions (which incorporate player feelings no doubt).  But if you are not starting with correct information, you can NEVER make correct decisions, no matter what criteria you use, unless you stumble upon them of course…


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 16:42

Agree completely.

Someone I know talked to a field manager (no one I’m affiliated with), and the manager basically said that he agrees with the recommendations of his analytic team but that if he did it, he has no idea of what would happen feelings-wise with his players.  He used the same reasoning when rejigging his bullpen.  One of his relievers told him that he did NOT want to close out the 9th (I know, shocking!).

Players apparently have great comfort in knowing where they are and how they’ll be used.  If a reliever is getting great success in the 8th, and he doesn’t particularly like the idea of closing the 9th, then that’s a piece of information you have to weigh in.  If the manager thinks he’s going to have to consider a:
3.00 ERA 8th inning pitcher at LI=1.3
3.75 ERA 9th inning pitcher at LI=1.8

Then, he might think twice about doing that tradeoff, if he’s got someone else at:
3.50 8th inning, LI=1.3
3.50 9th inning, LI=1.8

We can yap all we want about Joba and Papelbon and starting and relieving, but we need to know how they feel about it, about how much impact they’ll ultimately have in a starter or relief roles.

Inertia, however, is not a good enough reason.


#5    Brian Cartwright      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 18:31

but saber lineup principles aren’t very radical, despite some recent articles which I believe misinterpret the intent.

Put you two most complete hitters (OB & SA) 3rd & 4th. Put the top 2 remaining OB 1st & 2nd. Then do 5 - 9 in generally descending order of SA.

The historical problem has been managers who look at 1 & 2 as a place to put hitter who run fast, make contact, etc - but don’t consider the ability to get on base. Giving the worst hitters in the lineup the most plate appearances is what costs the most runs, not what particular order the 3-4-5 hitters are in.


#6    CJE      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 18:59

Players are going to think about it in terms of their bottom line. If they think a 5th place hitter is valued more in the marketplace than a second-place hitter, then they will likely want to be a fifth place hitter. Managers can explain that they have crunched numbers and that it is more valuable to have the player hit fifth than second, but I don’t know that it will automatically sink in. If the manager explains that the player will get 60 more at bats, 3-4 more homers and around 15 more hits if he is moved up to second that might be more persuasive.

Sidenote: LaRussa has professed a desire to put one of his better hitters in the second spot for years. In the last four years, the cards number two hitters have been 1st, 2nd, 10th, and 3rd in OPS.


#7    MGL      (see all posts) 2011/02/28 (Mon) @ 23:29

Human beings, especially those in authoritarian positions, are notorious for thinking that they know more then they actually know and for rejecting any beliefs by other people, expert or otherwise, that conflict with their own beliefs.

Some people more than others of course.  Baseball managers clearly fit the former.


#8          (see all posts) 2011/03/01 (Tue) @ 14:08

I don’t know. I’ve talked to and interviewed some Major League ball players about this. It seems what I hear has more to do with their mental capability to take their focus to a completely different level than with their pride about where they hit in the batting order. Now of course there are exceptions. Colby Rasmus probably has a problem with being switched around. But mostly, a seasoned veteran wants to beat the pitcher and help the entire team no matter where they hit in the batting order. They’ve all said so much about impact situations (RISP), how their focus goes to a different level (pitching or hitting). I would think to truly evaluate batting order one would need to look at how the batters fair in the different leverage situations.


#9    MGL      (see all posts) 2011/03/01 (Tue) @ 20:40

"I would think to truly evaluate batting order one would need to look at how the batters fair in the different leverage situations.”

The noise would overwhelm you. IOW, you would never be able to see the signal through the noise.

I agree with your premise (I think that is one of your premises) that many players don’t care where they bat, certainly within reason (e.g. Pujols would probably not be happy batting 7th).  Therefore, it behooves a manager to start out by finding out his optimal BO against RH and LH pitchers, and then go from there.  If he meets any resistance from the players or feels that one player would be more comfortable in one spot than another, he can then tweak that (presumably) optimal order.  As I said before, you have to start from a position of strength (knowing the approximate optimal BO on paper, and how much each change will cost you, on paper)…


#10          (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 13:09

MGL: Thanks so much for the feedback. I think so often it’s the noise that will tell us what we are missing. I spent the entire off season looking at what went wrong with teams around the league in regards to hitting.  (Because I always learn more from what went wrong than what went right).
Many times I found in tight division races in about five games or less the game was lost in a one run game in a particular batting event in a high leverage situation.

So, maybe it’s chance, luck, or just the way the year played out but is it possible we are missing something--- a bridge between the mind of a ball player and what we know on paper? (And I like the things we know on paper.) Which, couldn’t that be one of the reasons why they always say, “You have to play the games”?
I’ve wondered if batting order is part of this.


#11    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 13:45

Anna: that is just random variation.  Someone has to win the high-leverage battle.  Or it’s after-the-fact confirmation bias.

My basic rule is that you are almost never going to find some trend.  If you do find some trend, it’ll be weak.  And if it’s not weak, it’s going to take tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of plate appearances to manifest itself to any visible extent.


#12          (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 18:03

Thanks for the answer. Random variation is why I haven’t said anything before. But lately I keep thinking about it and I wonder if over the course of an entire season if those very few runs could have had a greater impact on wins than expected. Take your after-the-fact confirmation bias.

What if it’s narrowed down to more particular events? Like, high, medium and low leverage situations where a batter is walked. Then look at how the other batters on the team responded after that event. 

I’m know I’m getting into a whole host of other things, but if a team fairs particularly bad after a walk in a high leverage situation could those games lost in high leverage situations tell one something about the other batters and in effect help to manage the batting order more effectively?


#13    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 18:09

What you are saying is definitely possible.

What you are faced with however is finding that evidence.  MLB performance results simply doesn’t provide you with enough of a sample to confirm your hypothesis.

A high-leverage situation (LI of 2 or greater) occurs in only 10% of all plate appearances.  So, on a per-player basis, you are talking about 60 plate appearances.

Even if you could somehow find this effect globally, you’d be hard-pressed to find it at a player level.  You wouldn’t know which of the player has this trait.


#14    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 18:12

The basic problem is that MLB players are SO CLOSE in talent, that you need a huge sample size to distinguish them.

Compare this to my recent threads on free throw shooters.  There’s a huge gap in talent at shooting free throws.  Enormous.  Because of that, it’s very simple to find out who is a good free throw shooter.  60 free throw attempts is as releveant to figuring out an NBA’s free throw talent as 600 PA is relevant to figuring out a MLB’s hitting talent.

This is what we are up against.  Because the talent level is tight, we need alot more opportunities per player.

So, 60 PA at high-leverage situations is, really, nothing at all.


#15    mettle      (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 18:56

What’s the difference between the dollar value of “mak[ing] the team overall unhappier” and the well-established dollar value of team chemistry?

Less facetiously: Why can a manager be lambasted for wasting a roster spot on a “team guy” that might be -1 WAR, and is great for team chemistry, but not for a roster-ordering decision that is similarly worth -1 win and… better for team chemistry?


#16    Matt Klaassen      (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 21:41

I actually wrote on this recently a bit with batting order—if there is some “psychological problem” (an overstatement, but I’m too mentally worn out to be subtle tonight) with current major league player about being moved around in the batting order (cf. “bullpen roles"), then one organization-wide solution might be to change how players are “brought up” in the minors. Have your bets hitters hitting #2 (or wherever), have them understand that they will probably be in a a different lineup slot versus RHP than LHP, etc. Explain the reasons why. Maybe that would help, I dunno.


#17          (see all posts) 2011/03/02 (Wed) @ 23:02

Tango: Thanks (again).  This:
The basic problem is that MLB players are SO CLOSE in talent, that you need a huge sample size to distinguish them.

Taking into consideration your chapter on batting order in The Book the examples I looked at I only looked at the players who lead the league in Situational Wins Added and what those teams did. One example:  In low leverage situations Albert Pujols was give a IBB 7 times in six games. St. Louis won all six games. In Medium Leverage situations Pujols had 17 IBB in 15 games. St. Louis won 11 of those games. In High Leverage situations Pujols had 17 IBB in 15 different games. In those games St. Louis won only six and lost nine. Of the nine games they lost, six of the games were lost by one run. As a team St. Louis received 30 IBB in High Leverage situations. They won 16 and lost 14. The RS-RA difference between CNN and STL was 10 runs.

So while we don’t have a large enough sample size to confirm the hypothesis, I simply wonder when you look at the most talented players in the league how much teams are looking at the right information to put the proper players around them. Or, if the sample size is still too much of a problem. Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I should have started with this comment.


#18    MGL      (see all posts) 2011/03/03 (Thu) @ 06:59

Matt, absolutely.  There is no reason that things like that cannot change over time with proper training in the minor leagues and even in amateur ball.  That should be one of the goals of a progressive organization.  Of all the things that players care about that might not be optimal, I think that where they bat in the order, within reason, is toward the bottom of the list. I don’t think it would be that difficult for a manager or an organization to retrain their players in this regard.  You often hear plays, even stars, say something to the effect, “I don’t care where I hit, as long as I play.” Not all, but some.  And most of the others can be re-trained I think.  If not, you simply train your young players from scratch to either not care or to ascribe to the “new” and optimal ways of ordering a lineup. You didn’t hear about a revolt among the Cardinals when LaRussa started hitting the pitcher 8th, did you?


#19    Matt Klaassen      (see all posts) 2011/03/03 (Thu) @ 10:07

Batting order is probably the one thing I waste the most time playing around with/thinking about relative to its significance. I just can’t help myself. I’m not sure why.

Anyone else?

Is there anything else in that category (not a big deal, but can’t help wasting tons of time on it—baseball related, that is)? Don’t mean to hijack.


#20    Anna McDonald      (see all posts) 2011/03/03 (Thu) @ 10:27

Matt: Maybe that’s why so many (myself included) love the game. The possibilities are endless.


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