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Thursday, February 26, 2009

Andre Dawson and the OBP

By Tangotiger, 11:59 AM

Poz has talked about Dawson many many times

Rally has his version of WAR (wins above replacement) which is probably very close to mine.  Here are his threshhold lines:
73+: everyone in the Retrosheet era with 73 or more WAR is in the Hall of Fame
40-: everyone below 40 WAR is not in the Hall of Fame

Of the 92 players with 40 to 72 WAR, 15 are in the Hall of Fame (16%).  Obviously, the closer you are to the 72, the better your chances.  Indeed of the 30 players with 60 to 72 WAR, 9 are in the Hall of Fame (30%), and of the 62 players from 40 to 59 WAR, 6 are in the Hall of Fame (10%).

At the top of that list is Tim Raines with 72 WAR.  It looks like Rally has Dawson at around 65 WAR.

***

Andre Dawson’s offense was worth about +40 wins above average. 

He was a great fielding centerfielder in his 9000 innings there (1000 games, duh, or six full seasons).  Let’s say he was +1 win as a CF relative to the average CF, and average as a RF relative to the average RF.  That gives him another +6 wins for his fielding.  He also played a little bit of DH.  His positional adjustment comes out to -0.4 wins per season, which at 15.4 seasons is -6 wins.  So, his overall fielding impact is that of an average player.

You give a player 2.25 wins above replacement per full season, which gives Dawson 34 more wins.

That makes Dawson (+40 +6 -6 +34) a 74 WAR player.  Now, I’m sure I don’t have the same baseline as Rally.  If I repeat the exercise for Raines I’d end up with (+45 +7 -10 +33) 75 WAR.  So, we’re probably around the same page.  I can guess that Rally didn’t give Dawson as much credit for his glove as my WAG is giving him.

The point is that the low OBP for Dawson can’t be looked at in isolation, as something he has to overcome.  It’s one piece of the puzzle, that’s all.

You can easily construct a scenario, as I have just done, whereby Andre Dawson is at the line where he should be in the Hall of Fame with little debate, much as Tim Raines is at that line.  It is unfair to Dawson to look at his (obvious) lack of walks and at the same time not look at his (purported) great glove, his (purported) great arm, and his (purported) great baserunning. 

***

Win Shares has Andre Dawson at 340, which is right at the 50/50 mark of making the Hall of Fame or not.  That is, around that level, of players eligible, half are in the HOF and half are not.  So, again, you can make a reasonable case using Win Shares that The Hawk should be in the HOF.


#1          (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 12:37

Thank you for being the first sabermatrician (if that’s okay) to say Dawson’s OBP shouldn’t be the only measure of whether or not he is a Hall of Famer. 

Yes, it’s low, but he did so many other things. As you said, one number shouldn’t be the deceiding factor.

I think he is, based on his overall performance, not just his lack of one.


#2    cannatar      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 12:40

Tango, I’m curious how you arrived at +40 offense above average. Fangraphs has him at 266.4 RAA and BB-Reference has him at 216.4 batting runs.


#3    Rally      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 12:43

I have Dawson as an excellent fielder with a great arm, and I think our baseline is similar.

Where we likely differ is the offense.  Where are you getting +40 wins?  Baseball-Ref has him at +22 wins.  My offensive numbers are very close to Sean F’s, across the board.  In fact, before I set up the DB to get WAR for every player, I had a spreadsheet set up and just entered B-Ref batting wins next to my defense, baserunning, and position adjustments.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dawsoan01.shtml


#4    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 12:52

His WPA/LI is +39 wins
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1003091&position=OF

His REW is +32 wins.

I gave him a bit more for his baserunning.

Dawson may be an example of a smart hitter, one guy who performs differently as the game state dictates.  Or, even if he didn’t actually do it, his performance actually did do that.

At the same time, he managed to be -9 wins in Clutch, as opposed to Raines +6 wins in Clutch.


#5    Rally      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 13:56

Part of Dawson’s difference is that I don’t think David is removing pitcher hitting in WPA/LI.

If you look at American league players from the 70’s/80’s, the WPA/LI usually matches B-REF, but for NL players WPA/LI is usually greater.

Dawson does have a bigger difference than some of the other players I looked at, so some of the difference might be him being a better situational hitter.


#6    Tangotiger      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 14:02

If that’s the case, that would likely account for about 5 wins over Hawk’s NL career.


#7          (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 14:42

I ditto #1. Not a slam-dunk choice but at the very worst, acceptable and defensible.


#8    JD      (see all posts) 2009/02/26 (Thu) @ 21:23

Re: Dawson’s defense

Was Dawson really all that good with the glove as a right fielder? From what I understand, his knee (I think) injuries turned him into a fairly immobile player (though he still retained enough speed to steal a few bases here and there). By the time he joined the Cubs, I recall people criticizing his glove.


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